Rules of war vs local laws

[anonymouse1940]

This has been on my mind for the last several years, at what point do you decide if a situation is an act of war vs one that should be handled under the laws and protocals of the local government?

Consider terrorism and the U.S.A. declaring a war on terrorism (ignore the issue of whether or not war has been actually declared or not). Since the United States are under threat of attack by factions who have declared war on us, and since acts have been perpetrated against us on our own soil, and since it should be fairly obvious that enemies against us are living here within our borders, and since some locals and municipalities have very restrictive rules of firearms use or engagement against an identified attacker, at what point can one declare they are acting under rules of war and claim exemption from local or federal legislation? Or must we as citizens always defer to local and federal legislation to stay legally free from prosecution?

Must one always attempt to defer to local law enforcement to stay relatively free of legal liability, or must there be obvious open warfare on the streets before we can consider ourselves under active engagement by the enemy. At what point can an individual act regardless of local legislation? Or can one ever get to that point as a citizen of the United States while residing within the borders of the United States?

I'm basically wondering if we must always act from a clear disadvantage and wait for the enemy to act before we can react? At what point can we become proactive? Martial Law would be a further restriction on the citizen, and would only further open a citizen up to an easier assault against them. As we know with "normal" criminals, the bad guys don't play by the rules. Must we wait for a full failure of the government and military and local law enforcement to contain a situation or an army of agressors before we can freely act?

I'm rambling, and may not have clearly made my point. Hopefully you will see what I'm wondering about. Please save the armchair bravado, even though my question may be muddy I'm looking for a clear answer but am afraid the only answer may be unclear as well. Such is the realities of life I guess. Thanks for listening.

 

[ctdonath]

ignore the issue of whether or not war has been actually declared or not

No can do. The formal declaration of war IS IMPORTANT. One may bandy about terms like "war on terror", but unless there is an actual declaration of war, or letters of marque granted, no actions outside of peacetime law may be performed.

Yes, the USA has long been acting out wars without declaring them. There are consequences which we have and will regret.

 

[anonymouse1940]

Thanks (I think),
I'll continue to act and hopefully not have to respond under the "prudent man" test qualifier.

 

[Blackhawk]

Yes, the USA has long been acting out wars without declaring them.

Ever notice that such has been the case since the end of WWII, which ended with the detonation of small nuclear bombs?

Think declaring war might be like declaring somebody dead or pregnant? Where's the middle ground? How would you explain why we didn't vaporize North Korea, North Vietnam, or Iraq in 1991 if Congress had formally declared war?

Prior to the Korean War, we didn't have any reason to avoid going all out whenever the shooting started. After WWII, we did, and I personally don't think we'll see Congress issuing a formal "Declaration of War" again. Just my opinion....

 

[Langenator]

As a private citizen, one is not recognized by the laws of war as a combatant, and thus one is bound by the prevailing state/national laws.

Now, if the terrorists were to be observed in the act by a member of the armed forces, I would have to say that said servicemember(s) would be bound by the laws of war in how they dealt with the situation.

Something to remember: any combatant caught on the field of battle (which, in this war is pretty much anywhere, for sure anywhere in the US) in civilian clothes or in the uniform of the opposing military(s) (ie, the US or allied militaries) has violated the laws of war. Penalty for this is execution. I believe the best and most recent example of this is the German soldiers captured in US uniforms during the Battle of the Bulge.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Blackhawk has it exactly right.

Someday, some country or group may pose enough of a threat to merit the august occassion and all of the pomp and circumstance of a "formal declaration of war". Be prepared to watch that nation or group get vaporized off the face of the Earth a few minutes later. Approximately 18-22 minutes ballistic flight time.

Thank you for playing.

 

[Jeff White]

I'm going to disagree with Blackhawk and jmbg29. I don't think that by declaring war, you somehow obligate yourself to use every weapon at your disposal. I do think that if you follow the little nicety in the constitution about getting a declaration of war, that it makes things much easier and more black and white. It's hard to say that the rules of war apply, if you're not legally at war. You get into this gray area that we are in now.

I think that the administration made a grave strategic error, when they didn't go to Congress and get a declaration of war a year ago last September. Think of the freedom to act that would have given them. No going to congress and negotiating for permission to use force in Iraq. No going to the UN and negotiating for permission to use force in Iraq. No messy legal battles over who's a combatant and who's a criminal.

If anyone thinks that there won't be congressional hearings, trials, special prosecutors and all ala Iran/Contra over many of the things the administration has done in the GWOT, they are sadly mistaken. It's only a matter of time before it starts. Most likely as soon as the Democrats manage to gain ccontrol of one house of Congress.

The answer is quite simple, it's right there in the Constitution, get congress to declare war, commit whatever national resources are necessary to win the war and get all of the powers that the Constitution bestows on the executive branch in time of war.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Approximately 18-22 minutes ballistic flight time.

Slightly off-topic but a few years back I rode US submarines for a living. There are two types of submarines, fast attacks and boomers (aka ballistic missile). I didn't ride boomers, but was informed that these boats carry a fair number of ICBMs. The boat must be stationary to launch those missiles.

A submarine's basic defense mechanism is the ability to hide. In a full scale nuclear exchange ala the old cold war, the boomer would launch it's missiles at the USSR and the USSR would be launching their missiles at US targets. A primary target is the other side's missile launch platforms.

It takes about 30 minutes flying time from launch to mushroom for these things. It takes about 30 minutes for a boomer to launch all of it's missiles. When the first missile comes out of the water, every country with satellites can tell where that submarine is located.

Can anyone guess the life expectancy of that submarine following the first missile launch? Didn't see that in any recruiting commercials.

 

[Fred Hansen]

I do think that if you follow the little nicety in the constitution about getting a declaration of war, that it makes things much easier and more black and white.

They do that now. The constitution says that Congress shall have the power to declare war. The congress chose to flesh that out a bit with the War Powers Act (keeping things simple is offensive to politicians). The current action in Trashcanistan is covered by the use of force authorization from September '01. Iraq is covered by the use of force authorization from 1990. Iraq surrendered, the surrender had conditions applied to it by the U.S., the conditions were never met. Surrender is therefore null and void.

If the above uses of force were unconstitutional, there would be Demorat attorneys lined up 10,000 deep to take the case to court. Every Demorat Congressman and Senator would be demanding Dubya's impeachment. All of the unconstitutional nonsense is just that.

It takes about 30 minutes flying time from launch to mushroom for these things.

Attention evil bad guys! You have an additional 8-12 minutes to live! That is all! BT/AR