ruger and the 1911, riddle me this

vikingextreme93

New member
I am not looking to promote my respect for ruger and the 1911 let alone both in conjuction (sr1911) but one thing bothers me that I see on a host of firearm forums. Generally speaking most people respect ruger for producing quality firearms that are well designed and built like tanks, the P models in particular. Correct me if I am wrong here but the majority of the internal parts are cast are they not? So if ruger uses these cast parts in many of their highly regarded own designs why is it that their are so many snobs against MIM/Cast parts in a 1911? Is this just the purists a design thing or what?

PS
I know MIM and casting are two different things but they are close enough to one another that I feel I can safely cast both together...lol
 

ligonierbill

New member
Any time a new manufacturing method or material is introduced, especially one that costs less, people will be skeptical. It's cheaper, it must not be as good, and sometimes that's true. Now put that in the context of one of the most iconic firearms ever, and some folks are bound to develop extreme opinions. They're entitled to them. But unless some real (not internet) problems develop with the Ruger version of the 1911, it will do just fine. And folks that don't like MIM parts will take their money to the custom guys. Who's right? The guy who is happy with his pistol!
 

Pointer

New member
As long as the manufacturer is not irresponsibly cheapening the gun while lowering the cost, I'm OK with the MIM thing... However, if the gun is going to wear faster or begin to malfunction a lot sooner because of MIM parts... I consider that abhorrent on the part of the Manufacturer...

Names like Colt, Kimber and Springfield trade a great deal on their names and it is criminal if they put less than their best efforts into the reliability of their guns... For hell sakes, these guns are created for life threatening situations!

A 1911 that cannot be trusted after 5000+ rounds is not much of a protection. Simple maintenance is all that should be required for a $1-2000 gun, to keep it properly functioning for the owners NATURAL lifetime. :p
 

Pointer

New member
As long as the manufacturer is not irresponsibly cheapening the gun while lowering the cost, I'm OK with the MIM thing... However, if the gun is going to wear faster or begin to malfunction a lot sooner because of MIM parts... I consider that abhorrent on the part of the Manufacturer...

Names like Colt, Kimber and Springfield trade a great deal on their names and it is criminal if they put less than their best efforts into the reliability of their guns... For hell sakes, these guns are created for life threatening situations!

A 1911 that cannot be trusted after 5000+ rounds is not much of a protection.
Simple maintenance is all that should be required for a $1-2000 gun to keep it properly functioning for the owners NATURAL lifetime. :p
 

excelerater

Moderator
MIM and CAST are not even in the same league
So I would not throw them in the same catagory and your point is mute
and while MIM is cheaper than Forged it can be pretty durable,half the connecting rods on cars are MIM today as well,even the latest and greatest
Corvettes use powdered rods (MIM)
 
Theres doing casting, then there is is Ruger doing casting. Ruger has such amazing control over their casting processes (the are part of Pine Tree Castings, which also makes car parts, Desert Eagle Frames, ect). The quality is excellent over each mold, and a good casting beats a forging in some ways. Forgings have stress areas (unless they're crio treated), Castings don't. I have way more respect for a cast part from Ruger than any MIM/cast parts from Umarex.

MIM just plain isn't as good as the other methods. It leaves air pockets which weaken the steel. It's also often surface hardened, so no tinkering.
 

Hal

New member
IMHO - Ruger is being "fattened up" for the oven.
W/a board of directors that has as little time on the board as Ruger's,,,,something's up.

The SR1911 is a good example.
Drop dead looking gun @ an *impossible* price point?

That really smells of something fishy.

Believe me, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to pull this thread in a number of years and eat my words...

However, my gut feeling is that in the not so distant future, people will lament the demise of the Ruger name being synonymous with rugged, dependable and good quality.

It's not the first and it won't be the last that this type of thing happened.

I only happend to pick up on it because I'm in the process of exploring what to keep and what not to keep in my safe.
Any and all Ruger's @ this point are on my "keep for future demand" list.
 

dahermit

New member
IMHO - Ruger is being "fattened up" for the oven.
W/a board of directors that has as little time on the board as Ruger's,,,,something's up.
The SR1911 is a good example.
Drop dead looking gun @ an *impossible* price point?
That really smells of something fishy.
Believe me, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to pull this thread in a number of years and eat my words...
However, my gut feeling is that in the not so distant future, people will lament the demise of the Ruger name being synonymous with rugged, dependable and good quality.
It's not the first and it won't be the last that this type of thing happened.
I only happend to pick up on it because I'm in the process of exploring what to keep and what not to keep in my safe.
Any and all Ruger's @ this point are on my "keep for future demand" list.
Very cryptic. I have no idea what you are suggesting is about to happen.
Very paranoid. Unless you can provide some logic or reasonable explanation for what does not seem right to you.
 

jimjc

New member
Hal..If you`re suggesting that Ruger is positioning themselves so they can sell off the company, well they certainly wont be the first. Smith and Ruger enjoy the top positions in gun sales, prime for the chopping block.

Viking....You hit the nail on the head, there are "snobs in guns" as in everything else. There are people that think if you don`t spend $2500 for 1911 you`ve have junk, of coarse these people are in a very tiny minority but none the less they exist and spread their lor.

Taking a 1911 and maximizing every process it goes through and making every part perfect is a game for fanatics on their own journey, it becomes a hoarders masterpiece, there's really nothing wrong with this because in the end we all have our own money to do with what we wish. But to suggest that a fine gun like the Ruger 1911 is inferior is silly at the very least.

There`s nothing wrong with MIM parts and it`s possible they can be better than forged or at the very least equal to. All forged are not better and all cast
arn`t either but I`ll bet the Ruger parts are there to last.
 

WVsig

New member
Taking a 1911 and maximizing every process it goes through and making every part perfect is a game for fanatics on their own journey, it becomes a hoarders masterpiece, there's really nothing wrong with this because in the end we all have our own money to do with what we wish. But to suggest that a fine gun like the Ruger 1911 is inferior is silly at the very least.

Claiming that a mass produced MIM filled, cast framed 1911 is equal to something that is built out of forged parts by hand is equally as silly and you seem to trumpet that horn often on here. . :cool:

Sorry but a $600 Ruger is not the same as a $1800 semi custom gun. Only the buyer using their subjective criteria can determine if it is worth the difference in price but claiming a Ruger is the "equal" of higher end pistols is silly.

It does not make the $600 Ruger a bad gun it just makes the Ruger what it is . A mass produced production 1911 made for the masses. It will serve most peoples needs and wants when it come to a 1911. However that does not mean it is everything a 1911 can be.
 

Dragline45

New member
There`s nothing wrong with MIM parts and it`s possible they can be better than forged or at the very least equal to. All forged are not better and all cast
arn`t either but I`ll bet the Ruger parts are there to last.

Yea but the best forged parts are better than the best MIM parts. From someone who has had MIM parts break if I can spend a little more and get forged vs cast I am going forged everytime. Although if the gun is going to be strictly a shooter and not intended for self defense it really is not a big deal to me.

and a good casting beats a forging in some ways.

No it doesn't.... and the price of the firearm usually stays the same even though they are saving a ton. Smith & Wesson revolvers have steadily gone up in price even with the introduction of MIM parts. MIM parts benefit only the manufacturer not the buyer. So is it fair that the company use cheaper parts, earn a greater profit, but the customer gains absolutely no benefit whatsoever?
 
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WVsig

New member
I am not looking to promote my respect for ruger and the 1911 let alone both in conjuction (sr1911) but one thing bothers me that I see on a host of firearm forums. Generally speaking most people respect ruger for producing quality firearms that are well designed and built like tanks, the P models in particular. Correct me if I am wrong here but the majority of the internal parts are cast are they not? So if ruger uses these cast parts in many of their highly regarded own designs why is it that their are so many snobs against MIM/Cast parts in a 1911? Is this just the purists a design thing or what?

On the other Ruger guns like the P series they were designed to have cast parts. They were built and designed around what Rugers cast parts could or could not do. So saying casting holds up in Ruger P series guns so it should hold up in 1911s is not a real apples to apples comparison.

The purist crowd in the 1911 world does not like MIM and cast parts because when the 1911 was designed and originally specd to use forged parts. It was designed to be put together by machinist using basic hand tools. It was made during a time when hand labor cost less than machine labor.

Now MIM or Cast when done properly is not an issue. The problem is that the philosophy behind their use is not to improve the design or function but to cut cost. Almost every company who uses a lot of MIM have run into issues with cutting the quality too close to the bone resulting in failures. This is IMHO exactly what happened at Kimber.

So far Ruger seems to be doing decent job only time will tell if their 1911 will hold up. They have only made about 9000 of them so IMHO its too early to really declare it one way or another.
 

arch308

New member
I'm no expert but I feel confident enough in Ruger to believe in any product they produce. Sure, they aren't as sweet as a custom job but I'd bet the farm the pistol would out last me.
 

Hal

New member
IMHO - Ruger is putting out new lines that don't come close to the Ruger quality of just a few years back.
The Ruger name is being used to expalin away a lot of things - even in this thread - ie. If anybody can, Ruger can.

There just comes a point however where you have to step back and look at something with no emotion or sentiment attached.

Since the inception of these new liness, Ruger stock has tripled ~ 10$ in 2009 vs ~ 30$ today.

If you go to Corporate Ruger and pull up the bio's of the board of directors and the officers, it's striking how many of them have so few years in with Ruger.
Jacobi - 2006
Cosentino - 2005
Rosenthal -2010
Whitaker - 2006
Widman - 2010
Fifer - 2006
And finally the only one of what you could call "the old guard" or someone that sat when Bill Ruger was alive
James E. Service - 1992

The officers of the company,,
1997, 2008, 2006, 1973, 2003(rejoined in 2006), 2007, 2001.

The 2006 date of Jacobi joining the board has a lot of significance. In 2006, the future of Ruger was open to a lot of speculation that they would even be around. Ruger stock had dropped to under $6.00 a share.
It isn't hard to figure that a company in trouble is going to want to bring in people to pull them out of trouble by whatever means necessary.
(I'll leave it open to you to read through all the bio's and track down where all the people came from before coming to Ruger).

There is nothing *paranoid* about this in the least.
It's simply the ongoing story of corporate America.

The "old" goes out, in this case Bill Ruger dies/Jr. steps down. Within a short period of time, the company has problems.
In an attempt to pull the company back from the brink, the "new" comes in.
In this case, the new has a history of doing that - and germaine to this - a seemilngly ongoing history.

The Ruger Product isn't what they'll list on a resume, it's the "turning around of Ruger", they'll list.

The LCP and LCR have not been typical Ruger "bulletproof" products. They seem to have more than their share of problems.
That's a departure from the Ruger of the past.
I was around when the Six series and the GP, the Six, the Number1, the Red Label and a few others - came out. They were flawless. Great from the get go and very, very, very few "teething" problems.

Bottom line, Ruger went from being on the rocks to being a Wall Street success story. It no longer has any family ties. It's ripe for the plucking/sale.
The current line of offerings is heavy on new introductions. These new introductions are not the type Ruger built their (rugged/tough) reputation on.
Toss in a new offering of a (street price) sub-$600 1911 clone that looks as good as the SR1911 and has a lot of good features - that has people wondering how Ruger can do it..

My gut feeling is that it won't be long until Ruger get's sold. Their new offerings haven't stood the test of time yet. (The jury is still out on the SR1911 since it just hit the market.).
If/when that happens, history says things don't go well for the buyers of the products.
In the mean time, history also says, when the hands on the reins are guided by making the company profitable/attractive for sale, actual product produced is usually not up to previous products.
The winners are the people that make the decisions and the shareholders.
The losers are more often than not, the customers.

I hate to contemplate somthing like this being in Ruger's future since I like Ruger products - at least the ones I own.
The upside for me as far as I'm concerned is that the Rugers in my safe have a very good chance of being known in the future as "one of the good ones, made before ________(fill in the blank).

The downside for me is that, as attractive as I find the SR1911, I won't buy one.

Less cryptic?

Edit to add - yes JimJC that's my gut feeling.
 

WVsig

New member
Same thing happened over at Sig. The reality is though that the "old school" almost bankrupted these companies. As much as I dislike what Cohen has done at Sig they are not in the financial trouble they once were in.

Ruger is ripe for a sale because of their debt ratio which IIRC correctly is very good. They are running a volume model sales growth playbook which IMHO they had to to. Wall St never seems to realize that you are selling $20s for $10 but if they did not they would cease to exist under the old way of doing things.
 

Hal

New member
It's hard to say exactly if the "old school" @ Ruger got them into trouble or not.
I don't imagine their castings division is having an easy go of it with all the competiton from China.

I don't know if I mentioned it above - but - I really hope I'm wrong on this and nothing would give me more pleasure than to come back in a number of years and eat my words.

I just don;t see it happening though :(

BTW -
Sorry but a $600 Ruger is not the same as a $1800 semi custom gun.
Don't ya love the internet where one day you're on opposite sides of a fence and another you aren't? LOL!

Sorry I had to chuckle @ that.
 

WVsig

New member
Don't ya love the internet where one day you're on opposite sides of a fence and another you aren't? LOL!

Sorry I had to chuckle @ that.

No I am pretty much always on the same side of the fence. A Wilson Combat shotgun is basically the same as the 870P base gun they built it on.

1911s are different animal and a different platform...
 

arch308

New member
Damn Hal, what you say makes alot of sense. You see the same thing happen all the time because the stock holders rule. At least I own a few of the "good ones" and now I'm thinking I'll be in the market for a few more.
 

WVsig

New member
However - you can always send that $600 Smith to Wilson,,,

Yes and when you go to sell it you will be lucky to get 50% of what you put into that custom build out of it even if it says WILSON COMBAT on the frame. LOL

PS I am not a big fan of S&W 1911s I do not like the external extractor. :D
 
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