Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation on Wolf Management

[Shoney]

I encourage everyone to read the attached RMEF letter on wolf and wildlife management.

Having grown up in and around Yellowstone and Glacier Park in Montana, I have been appalled at the destruction of the game herds by the introduction of the Canadian gray wolf. The people, who love the “romance” of the wolf, have never seen a wolf pack hamstring and feed on healthy elk or moose, while the animals try to drag themselves away for up to ½ hour before “succumbing”. Studies show that each wolf take an average of 23 elk apiece from November to April, when kills can be easily documented because of snow. April through November kills are anyone’s guestimate.

My friend drew a moose permit for the area west of Glacier Park last year. I accompanied him for a total of three weeks. We saw one moose way in the distance. When we hiked several trails into areas that used to be loaded with moose, all we saw were wolf tracks, and damn few to no deer, elk, or moose tracks.

Kudos to the RMEF for pointing out why Defenders of Wildlife and Western Wildlife Conservancy really want to “defend” the wolf.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I have hunted in the Bob Marshall Wilderness on Lynx Creek on the north fork of the Sun, Whitetail Creek on the Dearborn, or Cox Creek on the Flathead since 1985. The difference in the elk population is striking from then until now.

The consequences to the outfitters and others who make their living off hunting is a big price to pay for some fairy tale view of what is "natural". When the elk are gone and the wolves starve and start eating more livestock the movie star, college professor naturalist will never even know it happened and move on to the next cause.

 

[reloader28]

There is a big rally in Cody on Saturday I think in the city park to talk about the wolf problems. Trying to get them delisted. They've gotten so out of control, there has has even been some outfitters that have turned in their permits cause of loss of game. Without the game, they cant outfit. (I would actually like less outfitters, but thats my opinion.)

Got a picture of a wolf yesterday that was just ambeling along the road. We were only 50-60 yds away and he never paid us any mind at all. Big grey one. Got one with a herd of elk in the background too, but as it was with my cell phone, I dont know if it will turn out. We were on our way to work in the Beartooth's.

I guess they got wolves up in the Bighorns now.

I did hear the other day that the Yellowstone elk population is down from something like 14,000 before the wolves to 6,000 now.

 

[kraigwy]

Those suckers get to the Big Horns, its time for the three "S"s

I hunt with horses, I have a right to protect my horses. "Nuf Said"

 

[obxned]

We can have both wolves and big game animals, but not without controlling the wolf population. Unchecked, they will breed until there is no other living thing within their range.

 

[kodiakbeer]

Look to Alaska. In the areas accessible by road (and thus comparable to the lower 48), there is no wolf problem. Hunters thin out the wolves and keep a rough balance between game, hunters and wolves. Wolves are just another game animal in Alaska

The wolf eradication programs you hear about, are around remote villages hundreds of miles from the road. There aren't enough hunters to keep the wolf numbers down and it becomes a problem that the state tries to deal with.

In effect, the "threatened" status of the wolf in the Rockies is artificially creating the same effect. The wolf will not be eradicated if de-listed. It's here (there) to stay and they should simply open them up for hunting to restore balance.

 

[mothermopar]

I'm ignorant to the whole wildlife management process/theory, but how was the balance of wolf/prey animals balanced before people hunted with modern weaponry, equipment, etc?

It would seem to me that there's a cyclical nature, to nature (without human intervention).

For example: There are alot of prey animals and the wolves flourish and eventually eat themselves out of food... so some wolves die off from starvation or some other natural 'thing' that prevents them from reproducing so much due to lack of food sources. Then, the prey animals reboud to greater numbers and eventually, so do the wolves... then the whole thing starts all over again.

Am I wrong? I mean, I always thought that left alone, nature will balance itself out?!?! Even if NO animals are hunted by man.

I mean, if you start whacking all the wolves again, then there may be a population problem with too many prey animals...

 

[kodiakbeer]

I'm ignorant to the whole wildlife management process/theory, but how was the balance of wolf/prey animals balanced before people hunted with modern weaponry, equipment, etc?

Snares, deadfalls, poison, arrows, etc. Before the Europeans came, fur was a valuable resource to all natives. They took wolves at every opportunity and by any method that human imagination could conceive.

Am I wrong? I mean, I always thought that left alone, nature will balance itself out?!?! Even if NO animals are hunted by man.

Man IS part of nature in every part of the globe except Antarctica. If you leave man out of the equation, then you don't have a balanced ecosystem. Of course, with population growth and modern weapons you need to regulate that system, but man still needs to take part.

 

[Shoney]

mothermopar

Your understanding of "wolves" is probably based on the opinions expressed in "Never Cry Wolf" by Farley Mowat (the book and later the crappy movie). The book tells of the studies of a biologist on ARCTIC Wolves, who discovers they live primarily on rodent populations and only kill the sick, the weak, and the injured MIGRATORY caribou. We are dealing with Canadian gray wolves.

The persistent fairytale that the wolf only kills these sick, weak, and injured animals to keep the "prey herds" healthy is not substantiated by studies. They will kill animals just because they move, some say for pleasure. The facts are that unchecked, they will kill every creature in their domain and then starve, while eating pack members or rival pack members.

What I don't understand is that "defenders" of wildlife turn a blind eye to the to the havoc reeked by the wolf. They ignore the mass slaughter of game animals. They ignore that wolves do not kill prey then eat; they hamstring, eat the rear, disembowel, and feed on the live animal until it does die. Not pleasant to watch, and although documented on film, it is never shown.

I grew up in and around Yellowstone and Glacier parks. In Yellowstone, there used to be a large population of black and grizzly bears (now nonexistent because of systematic "culling" of problem bears). Bear will head straight for the calving grounds upon coming out of hibernation. They used to keep the balance.

When the Park Service managed the bear population (secretly), bear populations declined, ungulates increased and destroyed their habitat. It was an unwritten law that backcountry travelers were to kill bears at every opportunity, and did so. The darting of bears to relocate them was actually to "relocate" them to garbage dumps and incinerators.

Where is the outcry for the continuing destruction of the bear population? Wolves cannot kill an adult bear, black or griz, but they do get the cubs. Black bear are nearing a zero population with each year, as the adults age with no young to replace them.

mothermopar, you are ignorant of the real issues.

OK! OK! OK! I’ll get off my soap box.

 

[WVfishguy]

I (sort of) wish someone would introduce red wolves to West Virginia. Coyotes have already destroyed the sheep industry, and we have so many deer they are a real traffic hazard, and lots of folks can't even keep gardens. Canada geese are also a nuisance, filthy critters, and they taste terrible.

Seriously, on many stretches of WV highways, you can see a road kill deer every mile or two. Folks here hunt a lot, but hunting does not make a dent in the deer population.

However, I don't have cattle - or horses. Cattle growers might feel differently.

 

[sc928porsche]

Wow, There must not have been any game in the yellowstone area or anywhere else for that matter before we humans arrived. I guess we shot out all the wolves and planted all the game.

Here is the correct lesson. There were a lot..........I mean a lot, of buffalo before the white man got busy mowing the critters down. Nature provides its own ballance, and with natural preadators involved, the game animals seem to be healthier and more plentiful. Isnt it amazing!

 

[Shoney]

sc928porsche

A veterinarian did a study on the disappearance of the bison herds. His conclusion was that they were primarily killed by brucellocis, introduced by cattle as the west was settled. The shear weight of numbers of the dead bison cannot be duplicated with the hunters killing bison. The numbers of bison was in the 10’s of millions, and there simply were not enough hunter kill that many.

The Yellowstone bison herds are brucellosis carriers and are resistant to the disease, which tends to support his findings. Mans destruction of habitat is also a might factor in wildlife decline. If man doesn’t have shelter or food supply, he will also die out.

Man has altered the environment, and the introduction of the non-native gray wolf is a problem as they are much different from the former species of wolf they replace. The Park Service has played God with the ecosystem of Yellowstone, and the plague is spreading.

 

[kodiakbeer]

Wow, There must not have been any game in the yellowstone area or anywhere else for that matter before we humans arrived. I guess we shot out all the wolves and planted all the game.

You mean during the Pleistocene era? There were different animals then - an entirely different ecosystem. I'm all for reintroducing the mastodon and woolly rhino, but the current system has had man in the balance all along. Most of the animals we know today came across the Bering land bridge with humans. Man has always taken fur-bearers and game animals across the world.

An ecosystem without man is called a zoo.

 

[reloader28]

sc928Porche

Actually, there weren't that many animals in the park. The elevation is high and they get to much snow to make easy feed for buffulo ,elk and deer. Thats why they try and migrate out every winter, but are herded back in by gov officials on horses.


As far as the griz bears, I dont know much about culling in the park, but we are overrun with them here. I'm at the base of the mountain, and in the last 4 years, they have trapped 3 within a mile of my house. Last year a guy was chewed up bad about 3 miles from me and the fall before that 4 hunters were attacked about 6 miles from me. All were problem bears that had been relocated already and luckilly, as far as I know all were killed. Next to the ranch we're building at right now, they collared 18 griz within a 1/2 mile last year.

 

[ZeroJunk]

One of the officers in the Bob Marshall told me a couple of years ago that the Grizzly bears were not endangered and never were.

 

[Stiofan]

In regards to the lower 48 Shoney has mentioned it a few times, but mothermopar and sc928porsche don't seem to understand it which is usual for those that don't know much beyond what our media throws out.

These are CANADIAN gray wolves. They hunt differently than our native timber wolves and our native elk do not have the defenses needed to survive. The Idaho timber wolf (yes, a few still survive despite what people are told) is smaller and is not an indiscriminate killer like the big Canadian. It doesn't decimate the ungulate population and never has.

They are not natural to Idaho, Montana or Wyoming (and now Washington State). They are destroying the eco-balance. So please, no more of this why can't they all just live peacefully together. They are a foreign invader introduced by man to make up for the mistakes of a century ago, but they cannot and do not replicate the smaller US timber wolves.

If anyone wants to know why our elk herds are dying, look up "Mackenzie Valley Wolf" and see what their natural prey is. It's not squirrels and rabbits.

BTW, a local black bear hunter lost one of his dogs to wolves two days ago, 20 miles east of Coeur D Alene. Ripped him to shreds.

 

[reloader28]

Stiofan

I agree. The media does not say the real story and never has. Thes wolves around here are huge and can put a hurtin on something fast. And contrary to what the people are told, wolves DO NOT kill just for food. They have been seen many times killing several animals from a herd at once just for the sport of chasing and killing something. Its a game for them. Just like dogs chasing rabbits. HUGE freeckin dogs. The ranch hand where we're working said the G&F shot a 175 pounder last summer killing cattle. He wasnt the biggest of the bunch, but he'll do.

 

[Buzzcook]

Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation is apparently not disinterested. They have lost as much as $80,000 a year in fund raising.

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=5892

Clark Allan, the Wyoming Game and Fish Commissioner from Jackson, used to donate one of the eight licenses he gets as a commissioner to the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. The licenses, granted to commissioners by state statute, are typically auctioned by the receiving wildlife group for as much as $10,000.

After donations to the Elk Foundation in 2007 and 2008, Allan withheld the licenses in 2009 and 2010. Instead, he increased the number of licences he donated to Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, a group that has taken a harder stance against wolves in recent years.

While that non-trivial amount might not effect policy. The dire warning of this year don't match the more up beat reports of last year.

http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/NewsReleases/2009/ElkPopulations.htm

Nationally, elk numbers grew 44 percent, from about 715,000 to over 1,031,000, between 1984 and 2009 (see chart).

I have no problem with predator control. I do have a problem with people calling for the re-extermination of wolves.

When a politician such as Clark Allan uses his office to support extirpation, it should raise alarm bells.
Clark allegedly wants to kill all wolves and grizzlies that leave Yellowstone.
He has also accused the National Elk Refuge of deliberately starving the animals.
http://www.newwest.net/index.php/main/article/in_wyoming_charges_and_countercharges_fly_over_elk/

Allan says that as many as 25 percent of elk calves died at the Refuge this past winter compared to less than 1 percent mortality at state-run feed grounds. "Is it possible that some of the mismanagement on the refuge is intentional?"

I certainly don't want to turn wolf population control over to politicians such as Allen. If he and his ilk are not just be cynically playing politics with this issue, they make a good facsimile.

 

[Shoney]

In reading the RMEF letter, I didn't see any calls for extermination, just sound management, by the people who have already demonstrated knowledge and expertise in managing wildlife. The areas close to the national parks are seeing devastation of the elk and moose herds and other wildlife populations. I don't believe extermination is part of management.

One important point made in the RMEF letter (that noone seems to understand or comment on) is the use of Federal grants (public money) by the pro wolf organizations. It is obscene how much money is squandered by these organizations suposedly on wolf "legal issues" rather than restoration or promotion of any other wildlife and wildlife habitat.

 

[ZeroJunk]

The lack of accurracy in the herd estimation is a common conversation.


The foundation has a vested interest in demonstrating that there donations are being put to good use. The wildlife and park people want the numbers to back up whatever their policy is and has been.


There are districts that took out 60 elk by hunters 20 years ago that now take 12. Was that poor management and exageration of herd size by those who set the limits? Yes. Did the fires move the elk around? Yes. Did the wolves take out a portion of the elk? Yes.