Robber walks in with gun already drawn

[dakota.potts]

I have a friend that works at an overnight drug/general store chain. He happened to be off one night. On that night, a robber walked in and pulled a gun out of his jacket immediately and pointed it at the head of the clerk working there. He got what he wanted and then shot the clerk in the head anyways before leaving. He then went across the street to a local BBQ restaurant where a worker was dumping the trash out back. He shot the worker in the head.

The drug store employee thankfully survived. The BBQ restaurant employee did not.

I've wondered about this scenario lately. It seems to me that even carrying concealed would not have helped the first worker. The man walked in, gun already drawn, and made his demands. His demands were met and then he shot the worker anyways. I just don't see anything that would change the scenario. I doubt you could outdraw someone like that. Even if your draw is .9 seconds, the average human response time is .25 seconds. Do you just acquiesce and hope that the robber you're facing is one of the ones that won't kill you when they get what you want?

I'm not seeing any alternative answers. Pepper spray would seem to be worse than a firearm. Every answer I can think of is hope. Hope he turns his attention to someone else. Hope someone creates a diversion elsewhere. Hope he leaves when you give him what you want.

Is this just part of accepting that even in "normal" non-mall ninja scenarios, sometimes you can't be prepared for everything?

 

[Dragline45]

Is this just part of accepting that even in "normal" non-mall ninja scenarios, sometimes you can't be prepared for everything?

Pretty much, no matter how prepared you think you are, there are always situations that you simply wont be prepared for. That's just life.

 

[TXAZ]

About the only "thing" that may help in those type tragic situations is your wits, circa a fast thinking convenience store clerk in Phoenix ~1993: The bad guy walked in the store with his gun out, the cashier starts unloading the till into a bag, but feigns glances to the left of the bad guy a couple of times then says "hi officer smith". The bad guy turns all the way around to (not) see the (phantom) cop and is promptly shot in the back of head by the clerk and dies.

As Edward White of Apollo 1 said the week before dying in the capsule, "Everything we do in life is a risk".
Hopefully most clerks receive training on how to deal with this, but I expect not.

 

[Tinner666]

Kinda regular around here. You just have to be SA 24/7 where I'm at. Being fast, you can still draw if you see him drawing outside and meet force with force. I'd had more than one with his gun out realize I was aimed and about to finish pulling the trigger.
It helps me that in my case, people were dying every week on my block and I wasn't complacent about it.

 

[dayman]

I just don't see anything that would change the scenario.

That, sadly, sums it up.
We train to be better prepared for the situations we can change, but that certainly doesn't provide any guarantees. No matter how well trained you are, and no matter how great your situational awareness is, there's always the possibility that something's just going to blind side you.
We've all watched the movies and we like to think of ourselves as the hero protagonist, but sometimes the cards are just against you.

But there's no sense worrying about it. The odds of being in a violent conflict are low, and the odds of being in a violent conflict where you have no control over the outcome are even lower.

As the saying goes "God, grant me the strength to change the things I can, the courage to accept the things I can't, and wisdom to know the difference."

If you try to control every possible risk you'll wind up in a basement wearing a tinfoil hat.

 

[Departed402]

To concur with the others, yeah, sometimes there is not a lot you can do. Luckily many criminals aren't too intelligent, but you don't want to underestimate them. Some can be rather tactful. This was seen in the assassinations of Texas prosecutors this past summer. I recall reading about assassinations of LEOs in their patrol cars this year, and there were the four officers that were gunned down in the Washington coffee house a few years ago. Not to mention incidents like the D.C./Metro Snipers.

So what can we do? The key is being armed as much as possible, and making mental preparations, such as exit strategies or visualized responses to threats of violence. You can't be in condition yellow all the time, but if you plan you can effectively snap into condition red when needed.

 

[MTT TL]

If they have the drop on you mostly all you can really do is pray they are not a sociopath. Didn't work in that scenario.

There are techniques for disarming people who have guns pointed at your head. I'd have to have to try one in real life. It does require a bit of training as well.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The hypothetical is all well and good.

I really suggest that such scenarios be tried in a controlled FOF situation.

Some immediate responses to the sight of a gun being drawn can alter the situation. Saying you are out of luck or what can I do? It's hopeless - wah.

Well, try it.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Yeah.. That's life. Happened to my old man as well. He's alive and well right now. But his life was in the hands of someone else with a bullet between them. Unfortunately the primer wasn't facing him.

My half-brother was shot.

My uncle was shot.

This stuff happens more often than not.


We are always as the "good guys" in the defensive. The offense "bad guys" will usually always have the drop on you.

We go into day by day life just living in the moment. They look for harming other. They consider robbing people going to "work" in the morning. Legitimate work. Their minds are conditioned through poverty to feel that's the only way to make money. Their senses of killing a stranger is gone. They're desensitized by someone who trained them at a much younger age. They feel it's the norm.


We are in the defensive. Even as a LEO.

Only time good guys are on the offense that I've seen is military (war) and S.R.T (S.W.A.T).

 

[lcpiper]

When I was in the Army I worked part time for a Security Guard outfit in Colombus, GA. for awhile and they eventually moved me to working a liquor store. All the clerks had guns stashed at their registers, I was uniformed and they had a podium for me to sit at when I wasn't walking the store. One night a guy who owned a bar was short a couple of prime brands and came in to get a couple bottles. He was in his convertible corvette and he was armed, he didn't want to leave his gun in his car so he brought it in, in his holster, in his hand held up at head level for all to see. He was at least 5 steps through the door before it registered on me what he had in his hand, then that he wasn't supposed to have it, and that he was in turn making sure we didn't shoot him for it.

I realized at that moment that if someone came in determined and willing to vanquish any resistance I would not be able to stop them, and that this is exactly why this liquor store paid for a uniformed security guard when they were all armed themselves. I was the pop-up target and even if I didn't know it, I was being paid to take the first shots and give them time to react.

I quit really fast.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Nice piece by Greg E. on BGs and training:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=737194

I think it reinforces that training is essential.

 

[eldermike]

There is not as many trap doors as there should be. If I owned such a business I would build a drop door at the checkout point, it would be triggered by a sequence on the register. One more possible trap door in front of the counter would keep the trash captive until someone arrived to take out the trash. Gunfighting is a last resort thing. Escape, reposition, gain some advantage or keep moving to safety, or die. If a gun is drawn on you have no advantage until you do something to gain it. Drop and roll might work if you know how to draw a gun and roll and have worked on this skill, and you have the physical/mental condition required to pull it off.

If there is a counter between you and the bad guy and you just dropped and roll the instant you see the gun then he would need to move forward and point down to shoot you. That's all the time you need if you pratice it. But if you try and invent a move when the time comes to need it, you will be thinking to much and fumble fingers will grown on your hands, the safety function will require your reading the manual and the snaps will not unsnap while you are laying on the holster and.....

 

[g.willikers]

There are training methods for dealing with these kinds of possibilities.
While they provide no guarantees of survival, knowing them is a whole lot better than not.

 

[madmo44mag]

I’ve been robbed and shot and even when situationally aware time stands still.
Even a well trained individual may or may not be able to avert the situation.
IMHO luck plays a major role.
Do the opportunities present themselves where you can take advantage of your training and or wits?
If they don’t you have little chance to change the out come.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

I doubt you could outdraw someone like that. Even if your draw is .9 seconds, the average human response time is .25 seconds.

This is why you should train to MOVE FIRST and DRAW SECOND. Immediate movement off the line of attack is your protection. As soon as you're in motion off the line of attack, THEN start your draw. If you try to do both simultaneously (start to move AND start to draw) then you won't clear of the bad guy's muzzle as quickly and you may also telegraph that you're about to do him harm.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Good point - if you wait till the gun is at your head - well, that's a disadvantage but even then not insurmountable.

I have seen folks in training beat a drawn gun pointed at them. In FOF, I walked through a door (I had to!) to face two folks with drawn guns - in the following melee of movement, I took two peripheral hits but got two COMs.

Of course, that is not guaranteed, nor an indication of my ninja abilities. Just saying, it ain't over till its over.

On the other hand, I was the crook with the drawn gun and the clerk hit me in the noggin. I fell to the ground and then 'shot' his inner thigh repeatedly. 5
38's (Code Eagle) for real in your leg would have been nasty.

 

[teeroux]

If its pressed against your head. Make a grab for the gun. If theres a counter dive and draw firing through or over the counter. The act of fighting back is sometimes enough. If it ain't. Keep fighting.

There is not as many trap doors as there should be. If I owned such a business I would build a drop door at the checkout point, it would be triggered by a sequence on the register. One more possible trap door in front of the counter would keep the trash captive until someone arrived to take out the trash.

Lol. I could also immagine a couple of old air bags strategically placed under floor tiles or wall of the counter.

 

[garryc]

I'm right now teaching a young lady from my church defensive use of a handgun. She is taught not to stand flat footed in the sights of another. Your best chance is if you move your butt. She is taught to draw and fire on the run. The biggest flaw in any defensive training is to STAND and fight.

 

[Mike38]

About the only "thing" that may help in those type tragic situations is your wits, circa a fast thinking convenience store clerk in Phoenix ~1993: The bad guy walked in the store with his gun out, the cashier starts unloading the till into a bag, but feigns glances to the left of the bad guy a couple of times then says "hi officer smith". The bad guy turns all the way around to (not) see the (phantom) cop and is promptly shot in the back of head by the clerk and dies.

Yep, create you own diversion. Back many moons ago I was big into Karate, and we got taught about diversion tactics. Raise your arm up quickly at a 45 degree angle, shake your hand rapidly and scream. 99% of the people your are facing will look up at your hand. There’s your diversion! May only last half a second, but that half second may be all the time you need. If it doesn't work, at least you went down trying.

 

[Seaman]

"Even if your draw is .9 seconds, the average human response time is .25 seconds. " [dakota potts]

Slow, have to get quicker. Lance Thomas kept guns behind the counter, survived numerous robberies, shot eleven perps. He was lucky too, took a slug thru the neck.

If you carry and want to get Bill Jordan/Bob Munden quick, you need three things: the right gun, the right holster, and the right technique. Both of the aforementioned gents used different guns, different holsters and different techniques, but had similar results.

My 3 factors are different too.

I can also cheat... i.e. palm a small gun/shoot thru clothing, etc. but excellent radar is necessary here, will transition to a like system should one day my hand speed deteriorate (i.e. arthritis).

"The biggest flaw in any defensive training is to STAND and fight." [garryc]

Thats what I do. (A bad back limits quick body movements, so my only option is to draw and shoot.) Worked for Wyatt Earp. Crazy, huh? 2013 and I practice like I'm about to face John Wesley Hardin.

Best.