Rifle Hunting Accuracy

[Superhornet]

What is this mystic element ?? Is it .5" at 100 yards or is a 2" group good enough ?? Never seen a rifle that was evaluated in a Gun Rag that could not shoot all factory ammo of any weight into a .5" hole. Of course when I tried it, could never get better than 1-2 inches...Is a gun that shoots into 2 inches (.308Win) a good hunting rifle??

 

[edm1]

There is no real direct answer written in stone. Rule of thumb is as long as you can keep all shots on a paper plate you can safely hunt at that distance. That is assuming the caliber allows it. So if you can place them all on a plate at 200 yards but not at 250, your range is 200 yards. Most people don't shoot game further that 100 yards anyways due to terrain.

 

[Clayfish]

Rifles are only as accurate as the shooter. When i first started shooting to say the least I could hit the broad side of a barn, but barely. With practice your groups will always improve. Shure most shooters can shoot sub moa from a rest, but put a deer in front of them and their heart rate and breathing go through the roof and they can't shoot moa anymore. Know your limits. if you can only shoot 2 inches then don't aim for the neck at 200 yards. I've never seen a new rifle that wouldn't shoot moa or better. Add cheap optics and the human element and you may be off. The name of the game is practice.

 

[Ruger4570]

I think generally, most new rifles will shoot 1" to 2". Some of course do better, some worse. I have had rifles that with a little load development would easily shoot under an inch. I have had rifles (note: HAD) that no matter what I did would not shoot very well. I have never had a Savage that wouldn't shoot right around 1" right out of the box, yet I owned a Win 70 that no matter what I did mostly sprayed bullets all over the target..
Your question was: is 2" group good enough. For deer hunting at 100 yards to 200... yes it is. You are shooting a deer, not a P Dog at 400 yards

 

[30Cal]

I'd say the limit for most hunters is 300yds or less. Past there, the ability to compensate for bullet drop and wind become crucial. A 2MoA rifle will be able to score mortal hits at this range.

 

[bill k]

I agree gun rags never say a rifle will shoot over 1/2 inch at 100 yards. They do give fairly good insight though. Case in point this months "Guns and Ammo" pg 38. They tested the Howa Varminter supreme, they admitted it shot 1.5 at 100 yards but got the groups down to .9 after testing various ammo. This was shooting 5 shot groups.
You never said what type of rifle you shoot, also do you shoot 2" 5 shot groups or 2" 2 shot groups? If it's the 5 shot and you haven't played with ammo selection it sounds like the potential is there. Especially with all the 308 choices out there for ammo.
I've seen and owned many new standard sporting rifles (factory target jobs not included in this argument) that wouldn't shoot MOA. I'm not saying they're not out there, but take a factory rifle, with factory ammo, and shoot 5 three shot groups. Some might be under and inch but I would say most would not.
Bill

 

[smince]

If you use the "paper plate" as a standard, or any other target, make sure you use FIELD positions (and prcatice them regularly). You may find a limb or rock to use as a rest, but I've yet to find a bench in the woods where there was an animal I wanted to shoot.

 

[artsmom]

I think we could divide the question into several, if not more parts.

Some guns are accurate, some are "shootable" (just made that up) some are both, some are neither.

I have an old Savage 110 in .30-06 that is at best, an 1.5" gun at 100 yards. However, it has no vices as to how it is held or rested, I can get it on target fast with the tang safety and good scope, has a great trigger, and the stock fits me comfortably prone, sitting, or offhand. I can only 1.5" groups, but I get them on demand in the field. This rifle is very "shootable".

My custom rifle is about .75" with most any ammunition, and I am ashamed to say I never tried to do better, because I never knew anything that I could do with that extra accuracy. Timney trigger, custom stock fitted to me, and best scope I could afford, this one is accurate and shootable.

I had an M77V that would consistently beat my Custom (as long as the wind wasn't blowing), but one had to work to get it in place and held steady. It was finicky about what it was fed, but when every requirement was met, it would shoot off the bench fantastic. Accurate, but not what I would call a "shootable" gun.

If it shoots under 2" and you can handle it easily in field shooting conditions, then no one will be able to tell a deer shot by a 2 M.O.A. gun and a .5 M.O.A. gun.

 

[Paul B.]

Superhornet asked, "What is this mystic element ?? Is it .5" at 100 yards or is a 2" group good enough ?? Never seen a rifle that was evaluated in a Gun Rag that could not shoot all factory ammo of any weight into a .5" hole. Of course when I tried it, could never get better than 1-2 inches...Is a gun that shoots into 2 inches (.308Win) a good hunting rifle??"

I asked that same question years ago after buying several rifles touted to be .5" shooters by the "eggspurts" in the gun rags. The stock answer was Mr. Egg-spurt had years of experience in testing rifles and knew every trick for getting the tightest groups from the rifle. In plain English I was the dumb amateur and he was the eggspurt. When I wrote back that I had been shooting rifles from the bench and handloading far longer than Mr. Egg-spurt and could most likely out shoot his sorry a$$ any day of the week, I never got a reply. I won't mention any names, but the writer in question at the time was in his mid 30s and I was pushing 50 at the time. I'd been shooting something of one kind or another since I was 11 years old. I'm thinking most of those .5" hole were shot at much closer range than the 100 yards quoted.
I do have a few rifles that will give groups as small as .375" when I do my part. Probably .75" is more the norm, but none of these rifles are "strictly stock". I've tinkered a whole bunch with them.
Personally, I feel that if the rifle is a steady 1.5" grouper or less, thats fine. There ain't no bench rests out in the boonies. I believe it was Col. Whelen who once said that a 2.0" rifle was just great. Me? I'll settle for that 1.5" or less and be perfectly happy.
Paul B.

 

[Pointer]

If you measure "true" and cover all shots with a 2" disc... not too bad!

If you measure "false" like Weatherby, and your 2" disc only touches all bullet holes... the group sucks!

A 2'' group @ 100 will theoretically be 4" @ 200 yds and 6" to 8" @ 300 yds.
If that satisfies you, then it is good... if not... it sucks.

Remember, reloader's like to set their goal at anything less than minute-of-angle. (1" at 100 yds TRUE measure)

For hunting, a "true" 1-1/2" @ 100, bench-rested, is more than acceptible.

In the Army, I knew a Sniper who could call his shots within 1/2" @ 100 yds with a peep-sighted M-14, BEFORE he fired! (I was his spotter and I saw him do it.)

He was NOT in the top 20 at the USACOMZEUR Rifle and Pistol Matches. Yet, he would think a "true 1-1/2" @ 100 was terrible!

Only you can decide if you are content...

 

[Trxxx]

I look at it like this.

Accuracy of the rifle is only one variable out of many when hunting, but it's one I can nail down. Other variables, like shooting position, rests available, range, position of the deer for shot placement, wind - to name just a few - are different for every animal. So if I can be sure that my rifle will shoot sub-MOA (my personal comfort zone) I can concentrate on the other factors.

If I'm out with a rifle that will only group to 2" at 100yds, then I'm going to pass on some longer shots or shots where placement is more critical due to the body angle of the deer. I'd take some of those shots with a 1" rifle, so it would shoot more deer for me. At the ranges I typically shoot deer (under 300 yards) the difference between a 0.5" and a 1" rifle is academic, and I wouldn't sweat it.

So, for me, I would not hunt with a 2" rifle, but if someone was restricting their shots to broadside deer at 100 yards that same rifle would do them fine, and I would be happy to sell it to them!

 

[bill k]

I like all the arguments, but this is the reason I hunt with one particular rifle. It shoots a 1.5 or so 5 shot group at 100 yards. I concern myself with the cold barrel shot and have zeroed my rifle accordingly.
I also keep all my targets and if I measure five cold barrel shots in a row the grouping is under .5.
I'm not that good of a shot so I need all the help I can get from my rifle.
Bill

 

[Picher]

I've been a target and varmint shooter and started accurizing my rifles and handloading as far back as 1960. I've never owned a hunting rifle that didn't shoot under 1 min. after I'd worked on it and handloaded for it. That includes a Savage, several Remington 700s, and a Tikka.

That said, the average hunter, shooting one of my sub MOA rifles probably couldn't shoot a 1 1/2" group on a solid brown deer target at 100 yards from a bench. There are a few reasons for that. First, there isn't an aiming point; second, people often hold a little differently for each shot, even from a bench; third, lots of people flinch or jerk the trigger.

However, some people who couldn't shoot a 2 minute group with a 1/2 minute rifle can kill deer like crazy with a 3 min rifle offhand at over 100 yards. Why? Because they may be able to concentrate and be steady enough to shoot well under pressure. All the flinching and jerking is gone and they don't even feel the recoil.

Remember, the WORST shot from a 3 min rifle is only 1 1/2 minutes from dead center.

Picher

 

[Mannlicher]

Bottom line is that your hunting rifle needs to be able to place hits on the game accurately enough to kill the animal humanely, and quickly.
Different game animals and hunting terrain have different accuracy requirments. Grand Dad's 30-30, used for Whitetails in heavy cover, does not need to be as accurate a rifle as the one you intend to take out busting crows at 350 yards.
you have to decide what you are hunting, at what ranges, and in what terrain. Then you can make a decision as to the accuracy you need from your rifle.

 

[TPAW]

Ed McCleese states.......

Rule of thumb is as long as you can keep all shots on a paper plate you can safely hunt at that distance. That is assuming the caliber allows it.

.

I don't know whose "rule of thumb" your using, but a paper plate is 10 to 12 inches round! It's much to broad of an area to assure a good clean shot at a vital area on the animal. That's even if you hit the animal. A shoulder or head shot could miss completely! You may just hit meat and the animal will run off and die somewhere.
Not very good sportsmanship. I all fairness to the animal and to hopefully ensure a good clean kill, try using a smaller "thumb".

 

[jefnvk]

I think the paper plate isn't too far off, if you are shooting bigger animals like deer or elk. The kill zone isn't that small. Many hunters I know shoot the back of the front shoulder, as it will knock the deer down, and take out the vitals behind it. That isn't smaller than a paper plate.

And remember, it is not how tight the groups are, it is where the first shot goes. An older guy I met always shot one shot for practice, his reasoning was that it only the first shot mattered, there was no sense in practicing more.

 

[bergie]

groups don't matter much

I would have to say that one of the best replies came from bill k.
You don't shoot groups at deer. Go ahead and shoot all the groups you want to at paper, but when you are hunting you have to be able to put one shot where you want it. What you really need to know is where that first bullet is going to hit out of a cold barrel,and does it matter if the barrel is spotless clean or has had a few shots through it. If you are shooting groups, is it your first, or first couple of shots from a cold clean barrel that are "wide" and opening up your groups, or is it really all the better the rifle can shoot? When cold even if not clean, does that first shot hit the target in a slightly different location than the rest of the group?
picher, artsmom, and a couple of others also brought up some good points about shooting at deer, rifle accuracy, "shootablity", not having a nice bench in the field, no precise mark to shoot at and other things.
I've been shooting the same handload out of my Savage .270 for more than a couple of years, the only reason I shoot it at paper is to confirm my zero. Other than that a buddy and I do a lot of casual shooting including one "game" where we fill milk jugs, and 1 and 2 liter pop bottles with water and set them on a ledge near the base of hill at his farm. We then take a stroll across the pasture, calling out which target the other has to hit, starting at somewhere around 50 yds for the little ones to out past 250 for the milk jugs. Fun little game with a few other rules to make it more interesting and increase the pressure. Great practice for hunting as it emphasizes hitting a vital area sized target at different ranges, quickly, with one shot.

bergie

 

[JohnKSa]

I think it's VERY rare for the rifle to be the biggest variable when shooting in the field.

 

[TPAW]

I hunt deer in moderate to heavy brush. Generally, when I see a deer, it is walking slowly, with periodic stops, then walks again. If I can't get a good clean shot in a vital area , I don't take the shot. I would never rely on my bullet hitting somewhere in a 12 inch "paper plate" area. I don't want to wound the deer and have it run off somewhere to bleed to death and die. That's not hunting to me. If it is least likely that you will put the deer down on the first shot, then I say let it go, don't take the shot.
For those who take "paper plate" shots and think you missed the animal on previous hunts, think again, I wonder how many times you didn't miss, only to have it run off wounded to die somewhere.

 

[jefnvk]

TPAW, all my deer have gone down on the first shot.

My point is, there isn't a bull's eye on a deer. Few people can say, the heart is going to be at exactly this point. There is a kill zone, in which a hit there will drop the deer. You may get lucky and have the shoulder blade sticking out to give you some more reference on where to aim. The kill zone is roughly 8-10" or so. Maybe a paper plate is just a bit too big (I have no idea really how bg a paper plate is, but it seems to me that the hearts and lungs probably cover an are about the same size), but not by much. 2 MOA groups are plenty good, especially if keeping it within 300 yards.