Rifle Firing Without The Trigger Being Pulled ?

[ZeroJunk]

I'm sure most have heard about the Remington 700. In this and other forums there have been maybe 20 or more reports from posters that they have had a similar experience with the Remington. One poster said he had a Model 70 discharge or at least the firing pin dropped without pulling the trigger. Another said he had a Savage that would fire with the safety on.

Since all the discussion has been about the Model 700 perhaps that is why the responses are all similar experiences with a Rem 700.

My question is, who has had a discharge, or firing pin drop with an unloaded hunting rifle of any kind, when they feel they had not touched the trigger.

Do you think it was from the trigger being adjusted unsafely? Do you think it was a faulty design? Or, do you think there is no such thing as a 100% reliable safety?

 

[TX Hunter]

I have It was a Weatherby Vanguard that a Taxadermist friend of mine had,
He wont leave the triggers alone, and on this one he had screwed around with the trigger so much that when you would disengage the safety the rifle would fire.
He tried to sell me that thing, and I told him I didnt want it, and that he should take it to a real gunsmith before someone gets killed with the darn thing.

 

[ryalred]

Some guns with adjustable triggers can be set improperly, increasing the chances of an accidental discharge. If you adjust the trigger on a gun you should go through a rigorous testing regimen to see if the firing pin will release accidentally (don't use loaded ammo for this). However, as with any gun, one should ALWAYS CONTROL WHERE THE MUZZLE IS POINTING--MAKING SURE IT IS NEVER POINTED AT ANYTHING OR ANYONE YOU DON'T INTEND TO SHOOT.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I reciently picked up a used BRNO / CZ 22 rifle, an odd duck with a straight pull bolt... appearently the gun dealer didn't look it over too good, as when I was showing it to my local builder buddy ( he had never seen one, so I stopped it by for him to look at ) I hadn't even brought it home yet, & he put the safety on, then pulled the trigger, which was fine, but when the safety was then released, the striker would drop... defenately an unsafe condition, if a youth ( or adult for that matter ) was hunting, & tried pulling the trigger with the safety on, then took the stock off their shoulder to look at the gun, & realized the safety was on, who knows the direction it could be firing, if the shooter only expected to take it off safe ???

he was able to adjust the trigger so it wouldn't do this, the result was a much heavier trigger pull... but I have no idea if the rifle shipped that way, or the previous owner tried to lighten the trigger, & that was the result ???

 

[FrankenMauser]

My M38 has a 900lb firing pin spring (which doubles as the spring for the safety/cocking piece).

If the safety is allowed to slip out of the user's hand while manipulating it, the assembly will hit the sear hard enough to "skip" over it.
However, the firing mechanism passes all other safety tests.

Solution:
Don't use the safety.
There are other methods of remaining safe, without relying on a mechanical device - that can fail anyway. (Empty chamber being the safest, of course.)


As mentioned in the CNBC thread, I also have a Winchester Model 25 that has an issue. If the trigger is pulled with the safety on, it will discharge when the safety is disengaged. It is not Winchester's or the weapon's fault, though. The shotgun was built almost 60 years ago. More than 50 of those years of use never saw cleaning of the trigger group. Neglect caused the cross-bolt and trigger/sear to wear, where they contact each other.

I have the parts to fix it, but still use it in its "dangerous" condition. I am the ONLY person allowed to use that shotgun (and it gets very little use).

 

[woodguru]

The real question is how many rifles that mysteriously discharged had been adjusted or abused by someone?

I have no doubt this happens but I don't think the cases of an unadulterated rifle doing it are but an infinitesimal fraction.

If I'm on a jury looking at a settlement for this type of incident the plaintiff better be able to show the rifle and prove it wasn't adjusted out of original specs it came with. If it was they are going home broke and the attorney wasted his time on a frivolous case.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

My question is, who has had a discharge, or firing pin drop with an unloaded hunting rifle of any kind, when they feel they had not touched the trigger.

Do you think it was from the trigger being adjusted unsafely? Do you think it was a faulty design? Or, do you think there is no such thing as a 100% reliable safety?

Never.

I have a Ruger M77 MkII with a 13 ounce Jard Trigger.

Even though I treat the safety as "a mechanical device which can fail", it is almost physically impossible for it to happen. The safety is a steel bar that prevents the triggers motion. I can not conceive of a way that it could not work.

100% reliable? Probably not, but I'd give it 99.9999% without hesitation.

 

[OlCrip]

I once owned a Ruger M77 with the tang push safety. Cute little .257 Roberts. When I closed the bolt the first time it fired. Took it all apart and discovered a piece of styrofoam flake on the sear. Accidents happen. That's why they call them "accidents" and not "on purpose". Any firearm is susceptable to problems. GUN HANDLING SAFETY is the key.

 

[phil mcwilliam]

Ive seen it happen on 2 occassions, once accidently & once when we tried to replicate the accidental discharge. Happened on a new Sauer 30-06 when using the set trigger. The set trigger was obviously set on its limit by the manufacturer & the rifle would fire maybe a second after the set trigger was engaged by pushing the trigger forward. We adjusted the set trigger & have had no problems since.

 

[hooligan1]

I guess I can atest, My son and I had left the city at about 3:30 am, to head up to where we hunt, the tempurature at the house was about 35 degrees, outside. When we arrived to our hunting spot the temp was a might cooler at 25*,(its only an hour and a half from home) anyways we ventured out to our little spots overlooking a small woodlot. around 8:00 my son saw a little doe, and I guess his rifle wouldn't fire, until he pulled it down from his shoulder a little bit, the next thing I know is he's yelling for me to help him track a wounded deer! After all the looking for sign and following a slight blood trail for maybe an hour, we found the little doe. He'd hit her back and low, he bagan to tell me that his rifle( Rem 700 BDL 3006), had jammed or something. He tried pulling the trigger and nothing until he removed his finger from the trigger and began to lower the rifle to inspect it and BOOM. Thirty min. later a group of big deer came over a little rise in the timber, lead by a large doe, were two nice bucks, I raised my rifle up to shoot the lead buck, and my rifle would not fire! Now before any body asks any questions that are'nt very smart, I want you to know now that YES the safeties were off and the bolts were turned down in the shooting positions. I just kept trying to squeeze off a shot at the buck and finally upon lowering the rifle from my shoulder it went off. I never touched a hair on that deer. PROBLEM: Condinsation was the culprit. REMEDY: The night before a hunt I make dang sure my firing pin and spring are lightly lubed and then wiped down almost dry!!! It's never happened before or since! BTW we never have done anything to those triggers or safety's.

 

[JerryM]

Although I have never had it happen I am firmly convinced that users the Rem bolt action rifles have had it happen.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[Art Eatman]

Second-hand, from reading:

The majority of these events seem to follow one sequence. First, the safety is engaged. Second, some pressure is applied to the trigger, but the safety works. Third, the safety is released--at which time the sear disengages and the rifle fires.

For this type of event, I suspect that some mis-adjustment has occurred with the sear engagement. My reasoning is that if it were a design flaw of some sort, this would be a very common problem, not a rare event.

Separately, looking at safety in general: I was raised on the idea that no safety on any firearm is 100% perfect. That might be part of why I don't hunt with a semi-auto. With bolt-actions, I have a shell in the chamber but the bolt handle remains up until I'm ready to shoot. That way, I don't have to worry at all about whether or not the safety will function as intended.

 

[Sarge]

I pretty sure 'it happened to me' at least once and the rifle was not unloaded. I was sitting in a stand a couple of years ago with our old 78 Remington, which is simply a plain-finished 700 sans the receiver sight holes. The rifle is a 30-06 which was purchased used. It's always had a good, shootable trigger which had, to my knowledge, never been tinkered with before this incident. There was simply no need to adjust it.

I was sitting in an old chair on a deer stand, watching a ridge 350 yards away, when a fat doe walked out and down in front of a terrace where I could safely shoot her. I was sitting cross-legged with the rifle across my lap at 45 degrees and the muzzle pointing up at about that same angle. I hadn't moved at all until I decided to shoot this doe and I reached over and pushed the safety off before I shouldered the rifle. The gun fired and the doe tore off back into the treeline.

Once my *#?$!!*&$ W-T-F!!! quit echoing through the woods I unloaded the rifle and began to analyze what had happened. I had on a big pair of beaded-grip jersey gloves, upon which I had not yet performed my usual practice of splitting the trigger finger. I recalled that I had my finger alongside the guard when the rifle fired, and supposed it remotely possible that a fold of glove material may have touched the trigger- but not with enough rearward force to fire the rifle. I tried several times, with the rifle now unloaded, to duplicate the event. I also tried all the typical protocols you'd use, after adjusting a trigger, to insure it was safe. I was never able to get the rifle to drop the striker.

I was done hunting for the morning so I went home and yanked the action out of the stock, inspected the trigger and found the factory sealant still on the screws. I reset the trigger with more engagement than it had, and more tension, and loctited the adjustment screws. We still have the rifle, we still hunt with it and I never gave the incident much thought until I read the recent news involving Remington's woes with 700's and AD's.

The 78 is a great old rifle which has accounted for a lot of game over the years. I cut the stock down to fit the Missus a long time ago, because she shot it so well. I think for safety's sake I will find an aftermarket trigger with a good reputation and replace the factory unit. I don't want to ditch a good rifle or take the chance that the 'safety off' BOOM will ever happen again.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Separately, looking at safety in general: I was raised on the idea that no safety on any firearm is 100% perfect. That might be part of why I don't hunt with a semi-auto. With bolt-actions, I have a shell in the chamber but the bolt handle remains up until I'm ready to shoot. That way, I don't have to worry at all about whether or not the safety will function as intended.

I custom ground the safety on my M77 Mk II for this very reason. If the safety is on, and the trigger is not missing pieces, there is no possible way for the (unbroken) rifle to discharge. Rather than having a small amount of clearance between the trigger and safety, mine is making contact.

Some of my rifles can be used for hunts that allow an open bolt carry (like the M38 usually gets), but some hunts require quick reaction time, or silence. The rifle needs to have the cartridge already chambered, with the bolt down. I take great care in making sure those rifles are well maintained, and operating safely.

 

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Ive owned a few Remington 700s in my life, and none of them had a nice trigger pull from the factory, so I looked up on how to adjust the trigger. The Walker trigger has 2 adjustments, one for pull weight and the other for length of engagement. Ive never seen the need to to touch the engagement screw.

Frank DeHaas published a book called Bokt Action Rifles, and talks about the Walker trigger, and thought that while it looks sort of cheesy, being a lot of stamped parts, is a pretty good system for what it is.

One thing I have always done with my weapons is to clean out the trigger lube with break free till it gushes out of the holes, then apply rem oil to lube and prevent rust on at least an annual basis, and have never had trouble.

I didnt make a hair trigger out of it, but the release is good for me now, and I can cock the striker and slam the butt repeatedly on the floor without it malfuntioning.....I do remove the scope for that test, because Im whacking it pretty darned hard!

 

[JohnKSa]

I have the parts to fix it, but still use it in its "dangerous" condition. I am the ONLY person allowed to use that shotgun (and it gets very little use).

Please either fix it or attach a note to it noting its condition. If something were to happen to you and it were sold to someone without much firearms expertise the result could be disastrous. Safeties that seem to work but that actually don't are a very bad thing.

 

[sc928porsche]

No such thing as a fool proof safety. The only way to be sure that a firearm will not discharge is to not have a round in the chamber. My uncle once related an incident where one of his party had a Mod 94 win in 30-30 and he accidently dropped the rifle and 2 rounds discharged in the tube magazine. It ruined the rifle and luckily no serious injury.

 

[TXGunNut]

+1 on the tag and repair ASAP. I've heard about but never encountered a 700 that fired after safety released.
Good and timely thread, OP. Suspect we'll all do another safety check as hunting season gets going.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Please either fix it or attach a note to it noting its condition. If something were to happen to you and it were sold to someone without much firearms expertise the result could be disastrous. Safeties that seem to work but that actually don't are a very bad thing.

I understand your concern and the reasoning behind it. That's why I bought the parts to have the trigger group repaired.

However, that shotgun won't be leaving my family, unless 30+ people are all killed at the same time. Every one of them knows about the issue with the safety, and that the assembly can be "reset" by pushing forward on the trigger (which is a check I often perform before taking the safety off). And the 3 people that would be 99% likely to end up with the shotgun have all had it in their hands for a live demonstration of the issue (I like giving people the "Holy S--*" experience of a firearm malfunction, so they know why safety features and proper maintenance are important). {I do understand the irony of my own words here.}

I'd love to tell you that I'll be running to the gun safe to put a tag and trigger lock on the weapon, as soon as I finish typing; but it would be a lie.

If I can dig up a few of the odd-sized pins for the trigger group, I can fix it myself. But until then, or until I have enough funds to drop it off with a gunsmith (that has the proper pin stock on hand), the shotgun will stay the way it is. Because of the fragile nature, and rarity, of some of the parts in the trigger group, and the odd-sized pins required in two places, gunsmith quotes for the repair run higher than the cost of a new shotgun. It's a very difficult expense to justify, when the shotgun I want is the one I already have (but don't feel like forking over that much cash for).

I take firearms safety malfunctions very seriously. Any weapon that poses a significant threat to a shooter or observer is immediately taken out of service, and repair or 'disposed of' in some way. If you dig around these forums, you'll find several posts where I have linked to a picture of a Sterling .22 LR pistol my family "rendered safe". The safety didn't work. It slam fired. It fired out of battery. It did so many unsafe things...

We finally gave up on trying to save it, and decided we could not allow it to fall into the hands of an unsuspecting shooter. It was used as a target, and now looks like Swiss Cheese. It only poses a hazard now, due to sharp edges.

I just don't find the M25 to pose a significant threat.

 

[Norrick]

happened to me because I botched a home trigger job on my 77/22. There wasn't enough sear engagement. Lift the bolt handle, the firing pin cocks, lower the bolt handle and it sometimes would fall forward (although probably not with enough force to fire). A couple of times though the firing pin would lock back, and fall full force with a slight bump on the rifle or movement of the safety. No harm though since it was unloaded as I tested it.

It was an expected risk, so now I'm not using it until I send it back to the factory to fix it up for me (anyone know what they charge for labor? parts have to be "factory fitted" but the parts themselves are quite cheap).

I don't think these things happen on factory configurations. I suspect usually the user (or previous owner) is to blame for the most part.

Alot of things can be adjusted so that they work, but just barely. Once in a while it will just out right not function normally, and you wouldn't suspect anything was wrong up until that point.