Revolvers that load through a channel - weakness?

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Rachen

New member
Last night while downing a nice amount of Jack Daniels (alcohol always make you take things easy and think deeply about stuff you don't pay attention to when you're sober) and reading some past editions of Guns of the Old West Magazine, I notice that all revolvers which load through a port in their right recoil shield, including Kirst conversions of 1858 and Colt revolvers have their right recoil shields cut to perilously thin levels:eek:

The Colt SAA looks like a robust gun that belongs on the holster of an oilfield drill mechanic, but when viewed from the hammer and back grip, only a thin web of metal holds the top and bottom portions of the right recoil shield together.

I wouldn't imagine that revolvers of that type, even Ruger single-actions to be safe when being constantly used with heavy-duty loads. (Even black-powder loads of the 1870s produce almost 1100 fps at the muzzle with a 200-255 grain bullet, which is pretty bad to the bone)

I was going to channel the right recoil shield of my 1858 to accept the Kirst .45LC cylinder, but I think I am going to stick with the ungated cylinder so the gun can last through years of work and attain heirloom status (even though I am going to be using .45 Schofields for target and defense loads)

Lets hear you all chime in about this.
 
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Rachen

New member
I never heard of a frame failing in the area you mentioned.
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I have heard of .45 caliber Open Tops which developed cracks around the bottom of the frame and trigger screw holes because they were used with heavy loads.

Also, in the Spring 2009 edition of Guns of the Old West, (I believe), a writer states that Kirst specifically makes his .38 caliber cylinder to .38 LC specs and could not be used with .38 Specials, because open tops simply will not withstand the punishment from a regular .38 Special load. That is just a regular .38 Special, not a +P.
 
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rdstrain49

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If you switch to a better quality of whiskey, I think you find that there really is no problem, of any kind, anywhere, any time.:)
 
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MJN77

New member
I have heard of .45 caliber Open Tops which developed cracks around the bottom of the frame and trigger screw holes because they were used with heavy loads.
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Notice you said "heavy loads". This is because the open top design was meant for black powder pressures. Not smokeless. When you use smokeless powder in a gun designed for BP, even with the modern steel the gun is made from, the gun will not stand up to heavy loads. These guns were designed 150+ years ago. You want to shoot hot loads, ya probably otta get another gun. They would be fine with standard factory loads though.

a writer states that Kirst specifically makes his .38 caliber cylinder to .38 LC specs and could not be used with .38 Specials, because open tops simply will not withstand the punishment from a regular .38 Special load.
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This is because guns made for BP, like the gun you are converting, is made of softer steel than a gun made for use with smokeless powder. They will not take the pressure of slokeless powder. Ever wonder they say "BLACK POWDER ONLY" on the barrel? Your fears are baseless if the products are used properly.
 
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Rachen

New member
Quote:
I have heard of .45 caliber Open Tops which developed cracks around the bottom of the frame and trigger screw holes because they were used with heavy loads.

This is because the open top design was meant for black powder pressures. Not smokeless. When you use smokeless powder in a gun designed for BP, even with the modern steel the gun is made from, the gun will not stand up to heavy loads. These guns were designed 150+ years ago. You want to shoot hot loads, ya probably otta get another gun. They would be fine with standard factory loads though.


Quote:
a writer states that Kirst specifically makes his .38 caliber cylinder to .38 LC specs and could not be used with .38 Specials, because open tops simply will not withstand the punishment from a regular .38 Special load.

This is because guns made for BP, like the gun you are converting, is made of softer steel than a gun made for use with smokeless powder. They will not take the pressure of slokeless powder. Ever wonder they say "BLACK POWDER ONLY" on the barrel? Your fears are baseless if the products are used properly.
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I don't plan on using smokeless at all because reloading that stuff is too complicated for a trucker like me who's always on the road.

But blackpowder .45 Long Colts at full 1870s specs, still produce around 1000 feet per second while pushing a 200-255 grain bullet. That is still a lot of punch and will wreck the open tops, like what the author in the magazine said. Not sure about SAAs and 1858s though.
 
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MJN77

New member
But blackpowder .45 Long Colts at full 1870s specs, still produce around 1000 feet per second while pushing a 200-255 grain bullet. That is still a lot of punch and will wreck the open tops, like what the author in the magazine said. Not sure about SAAs and 1858s though.
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Look at original open top revolvers, they were not chambered for .45 colt. They were chambered for .44 rimfire and .44 colt. A .45 schofield round would be close to original rounds and would not harm the gun. You have to figure that the .45 conversions and open tops come from the 1860 army type frame. The 1860 army revolver couldn't take 40 grains of powder as is in a .45 colt round. That's why the modern Uberti factory conversions that are made to take smokeless loads have a bigger frame and thicker barrel and cylinder walls than a Uberti 1860 percussion revolver. When you convert an open top percussion revolver, it's still only as strong as a C&B pistol. I would be curious to see evidence of a single action revolver failing where you fear they could. I have a Uberti .44 magnum revolver that I have owned for 17 years and put thousands of rounds through. It is still just as strong as it was 17 years ago.
 
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Bishop Creek

New member
Look at original open top revolvers, they were not chambered for .45 colt. They were chambered for .44 rimfire and .44 colt. A .45 schofield round would be close to original rounds and would not harm the gun. You have to figure that the .45 conversions and open tops come from the 1860 army type frame. The 1860 army revolver couldn't take 40 grains of powder as is in a .45 colt round.
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Exactly! Why would anyone want to fire modern high power rounds out of a pistol designed 150 years ago? I have a Kirst converter and shoot .45 Schofield rounds with no problems.
 
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Jbar4Ranch

New member
Rachen said:
Also, in the Spring 2009 edition of Guns of the Old West, (I believe), a writer states that Kirst specifically makes his .38 caliber cylinder to .38 LC specs and could not be used with .38 Specials, because open tops simply will not withstand the punishment from a regular .38 Special load. That is just a regular .38 Special, not a +P.
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Since .38 Long Colt hasn't been commonly available for many, many decades, I don't buy this. Add to that that the difference in length between a .38 spl case and a .38 Long Colt case is only ~.0125"... roughly the thickness of three pieces of copier paper, and the statement just doesn't make sense. (That's 12 1/2 thousandths, not 125 thousandths)
 
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MJN77

New member
Actually, several manufacturers of "cowboy" ammo offer .38 colt ammo. Goex even offers it in a BP load.
 
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Hawg

New member
Actually, several manufacturers of "cowboy" ammo offer .38 colt ammo. Goex even offers it in a BP load.
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I believe the key words in his post are "commonly available". He didn't say unavailable.
 
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MJN77

New member
Depends on your definition of common. All the internet/mail order places sell them. Cabelas, Midway USA, Cheaper than dirt, Buffalo arms, Cimarron, they all sell .38 colt ammo. A lot of gun shops don't carry it, but I've been in several that don't carry .44 special either. It's not hard to find. Neither are the reloading dies, brass, or lead. Just depends on where you look.
 
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Hawg

New member
My definition of common is going to the local proprietor, maybe a couple of them. I for one have never bought ammo online. Heck you can get 38-55 at Wally World now. 40.00 bucks per box and 30-30 is 13.00 but you can get it.:eek:
 
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MJN77

New member
Shoot, my local Wally doesn't hardly carry anything. Just the basic stuff. Not even .45 colt. I actually find better deals on ammo online, including shipping. My definition of common is how hard it is to get.
 
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Hawg

New member
I mostly roll my own but I do have a few calibers I never got around to reloading for. I almost bought a 38-55 a few months ago but I said I'd never find ammo for it and while I had the funding for the rifle I didn't have it for the brass and dies, etc. at the time and I do not like to let a new(to me)gun sit unfired more than 20 minutes after I get it home.:D
 
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