Revolver philosophy and reliability vs. semiauto guns

[Darker Loaf]

So, I know I will get struck down from on high, but I will say this:

As new revolver owner, I've experienced far more problems with my 986 than any other centerfire handgun I've had experience with other than a EAA Match Witness in 10mm.

This makes me fully doubt the old adage: "Revolvers will work when all else fails."

Yes, many of you may say, "Oh this is because you are shooting a 9mm revolver and a new-production one at that!" This certainly could be true, and I will give you that. Or you may say, "If it misfires, then you can just pull the trigger again!" Ok, fine yes, that is a way of solving the problem.

But know this! Kahrs are much maligned (even by myself, who has sold 2 polymer Kahrs to date with reliability issues), but yet, my Kahr K9 has run with literally zero malfunctions to date... [pause for doubters] Know this! I've own VERY few guns that have had zero reliability issues. Heck, one of my favorite guns, a XD V-10 Service Length 9mm, has had scores of reliability issues... but to it's credit I've put 10,000's of rounds through the gun. I could make it run with a non-captured spring and a solid guide rod with the SPRING IN BACKWARDS!!! [It did not run well like this, but it ran goddamnit!]

But my concerns are not generated from the fact that this gun is a 9mm handgun. No, my concerns are from the fact that I've run the gun multiple times, until MANY screws have backed out causing a variety of functioning problems!

Granted, I love my 986, and I'd still recommend the gun. I shoot my 986 better than any other centerfire handgun than I have ever shot. However, I've seen about 4-5 important screws, usually blue-locktighted, sometimes even red--from factory, back out with vigorous firing. This would not be as troubling, but I know that I am not a avid revolver shooter. I've yet to break the 1,000 round mark (I'm pretty sure) with my gun. I've had the sight assembly shake loose. I've had the screw that retains slide-plate that retains the internals (which was red-loctited) almost fully back out. I've had the main spring tensioning screw back out twice within mere 100's of rounds, causing scores of light primers strikes to the point where 1-2 per 7 round clip would not fire.

So, my question to you is: How possibly are revolvers (if you actually shoot them frequently) more reliable than good (read as "service") semi-autos?

My concern is that any good revolver has screws which are constantly under vibration and heat that back out which cause the guns to fail. Barring idiocy (such as putting in the return spring in backwards), I've had no such maintenance issues in semi-autos. But it seems you have to glue a revolvers components in place, and even red locktight will fail you if you run a gun with enough rapidity and frequency, as I've had factory red-locktighted screw back out on me.

Why don't revolvers use pins instead in crucial areas such as the main spring???

Answer me, TFL!

I feel like someone told me that Santa Claus doesn't exist, again.

 

[Darker Loaf]

Also, it leaves me with the sinking impression that most gun owners do not:

1) Shoot their guns with any frequency
2) Own up to their gun's reliability issues

I've seen countless gun owners say: "My gun is 100% for 1,000's of rounds. Heck all my guns are!" And I can only doubt this... [unless I am unique and made of curses.]

 

[Hook686]

You are entitled to your view of the world. As my father reminds me, 'Life is tough, and then you die'.

 

[schneiderguy]

I shoot a moderate amount of rounds through my S&W revolvers. I've put almost 10,000 rounds through a variety of old and new S&Ws in the past three years.

The only problems I've had are with a Model 67 from the early 70s that has tight chambers that start to gunk up after about 50 rounds of lead bullets.

I had a new production 686 that had a strain screw that liked to back out, but never enough to cause light strikes.

The screw on the sideplate that holds the cylinder assembly in place comes off every time I clean the revolver, so I don't worry about it backing out on me.

I've never heard of nor seen a S&W sight assembly screw coming loose.

Out of curiosity, I checked my Model 28 that's done around 1,000 rounds since I last messed with the strain screw (it's not part of my cleaning regimen, although I guess it should be). The screw had backed out maybe 1/32 of a turn. And that's in a gun that gets full house .357s as part of its diet.

If your strain screw is coming out enough to cause light strikes in 100 rounds, I would call S&W and have a talk with them.

So, my question to you is: How possibly are revolvers (if you actually shoot them frequently) more reliable than good (read as "service") semi-autos?

I think you might be confusing "reliability" with "maintenance free". Is a revolver as maintenance free as a Glock? No.

Barring any parts breakages (which no gun is immune to), will a properly maintained quality revolver go "bang" when you need it to? Yes.

 

[l.cutler]

Hm, not sure about your problem, but I have been shooting revolvers since the mid seventies and I have only had two screws loosen up. An old 929 H&R would loosen one of the sight adjusting screws from time to time, and a S&W model 19 sight screw fell out on me, not sure what happened to that one.

 

[MrBorland]

Well, I agree that a revolver's reliability has it's limit, and if you use them enough, or push them hard enough, the likelihood of something going amiss goes up quite a bit.

But it sounds like you're having an inordinate amount of trouble with your 986. From the factory, screws just don't normally work loose on their own, certainly not as many as you're experiencing, and they certainly ought to stay put with Blue loctite. If it were me, I'd get in touch with S&W. I know and understand the feeling that you shouldn't have to, it being a new gun, but it's possible you got one that shouldn't have made it through their QC. Something definitely sounds amiss.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I've shot many 1000's of rounds through many different revolvers, of various brands, in calibers from 22 LR to 500 S&W, & honestly, have never had a screw back out...

that said, I'm not calling you out... IMO, S&W quality has been on a down hill slide, for quite some time, the last S&W I purchased new ( been 2-3 years ago now ) had to go back 3 times to the factory, before it was "safe to shoot"... however, when they did get it right, it now has a "refined feeling" that stands above most anything I own...

I'm not fully familiar with the model the OP is shooting, other than he said it was 9mm... ( it's not of the design like the Charters, that has a spring assembly that holds the cartridge ??? )

lets look for possible causes... ( again, excuse that I'm a revolver guy, but am not familiar with the model )... are the screws the same material as the frame ??? or is the frame a light weight alloy ??? dis-similar metals are prone to differing expansion rates, & can cause screws to loosen up more easily than screws of the same material as surrounding metal... the issue with my S&W involved "short parts" ( in my case the cylinder was too short, causing excessive headspace ) ( BTW, this was a 610... coincidentally another revolver that fires auto cartridges, in this case 40 S&W & 10 mm )... could it be possible the screws are not exactly the right length??? if the threads of either the frame area or the screws are not long enough to provide adequate resistance to unscrewing, the Lock Tite may help, but likely not eliminate the issues...

I'm sure there are other causes as well

but my main point here, is one bad example ( or even if it was every gun of that model ) does not represent every gun of that type, no matter if it's a revolver, or an auto...

my personal experience differs from yours, with finding autos to be much more unreliable ( in general ) however I personally own some that have been super reliable ( I have a Taurus TCP in 380 on my belt today, that has been utterly reliable, even if embarrassingly stuffed with pocket lint ... I took a community education class a little while back, where we learned about local law enforcement... we had the chance to fire their guns, on the police range ( M&P's in 40 S&W ) & even small older women who had never fired a weapon before had no issues with the service auto... so a blanket negative statement on the reliability of autos would seem unfounded...

I'd suspect you either got a bad gun, or the model is not representative of the general reliability of revolvers

 

[Darker Loaf]

I am not sure that the example is bad. I like the way it shoots. I really do. It loads easily. Fires smoothly. It's probably one of the most fun guns I've ever owned, especially shooting DA. But having the mainspring tension screw back out (not sure on the part-name) twice in fair rapidity is pretty annoying, and also to have to continually loctite/glue the backing out screws in place. It sounds like from community's general experience, my S&W 986 is a bit of anomaly in terms of screw-loosening. It's just that this type of maintenance is foreign to me.

I've run this gun fairly hard since I've had it. Like generally shooting it hot to the touch every time I've shot it. The second time I brought it out, I did have myself and two other people continually shooting the revolver, only stopping when it became uncomfortable to operate with bare hands, and constantly loading moonclips out of a pool of 10 moonclips.

It is not an alloy frame--it's stainless and so is the barrel, but the cylinder and some other parts are titanium alloy. I wouldn't see how screws in the stainless part of the frame would be more prone to shaking loose than any other revolver, though.

It's a 7-shot, cut-for-moon-clips, dedicated 9mm, 5" S&W Performance Center Revolver. It has an alloy cylinder to reduce the weight and force necessary to rotate the cylinder. It's the smoothest double action trigger that I've ever pulled from a factory stock gun. I really like the gun. Here is Smith's link to the 986: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57751_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

running her "hot"... is providing some answers... I generally don't run mine too "hot" but... competition guns do run hot...

I'd suspect either the threads are short, ( even 1 or 2 threads can make a huge difference ) or slightly oversized, or ???

since it's performance center gun, I'd contact S&W, & tell them about the particular screws backing out, & see if they can do anything...

 

[MrBorland]

It sounds like from community's general experience, my S&W 986 is a bit of anomaly in terms of screw-loosening. It's just that this type of maintenance is foreign to me.

As we're indicating, this isn't "normal maintenance". Running it hot shouldn't make a difference. Contact S&W.

 

[JeffK]

The only gun that I've had backing-out screw problems with was my P226, and a touch of blue locktight on the grip screws took care of it. Sounds like your gun has an issue of some sort, time to contact S&W. I don't think it's a revolver vs. pistol problem, it's a problem with your gun.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I think you might be confusing "reliability" with "maintenance free". Is a revolver as maintenance free as a Glock? No.

+1

With all due respect, if you are basing your opinion of all revolvers with the your experience with just one, don't you think that is a little bit unfair? I have lost count of how many Smiths I own, and I don't think I have ever had an issue of a strain screw ( the name of the spring tensioning screw) backing out. Regarding side plate screws backing out, I certainly have never experienced that. In the old days of course, the screws were fitted properly and installed correctly so that no screw locking compounds were needed. I have never had one back out. I do not have any Smiths of current manufacture to compare to so I don't know what is leaving the factory now.

I do have a couple of 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Armies that I shoot extensively in Cowboy Action Shooting with heavy Black Powder loads. It is a known fact that the frame screws on a SAA will back out over time. In fact, Colt used to put some teeny plastic washers under the screwheads to help keep them in place. The simple solution is to tighten the screws on a regular basis.

Do you have some decent gunsmith screwdrivers?

 

[Tom Servo]

It seems to me like there's something wrong with your particular gun if the screws are backing out.

I collect K-Frames, and I've been shooting them for a long time. I've had a couple of strain screws loosen a bit, and I had to tighten down a retaining screw once. If you're having regular issues with a new gun, I'd contact S&W.

Are you taking the sideplate off every time you clean it?

 

[highpower3006]

Regarding the screws coming out. Instead of just tightening them up and waiting for them to fall out again, try a small amount of blue loctite.

No offense meant to the OP, but it seems to be a common thing nowadays to complain publicly about small problems. I do agree that the screws should not come loose so easily and I too, would be a bit dissapointed if my new gun had a problem, but really, a few screws coming loose is just not that big a deal.

I have at about a three to one ratio of revolvers to autos, and the only thing I have ever had happen in 30+ years of shooting them is the extractor coming loose on a couple of my Smiths, something that was easily fixed by the aforementioned blue loctite. Of course, my newest revolver was made in 1982 so I have no experience with newer S&W revolvers.

S&W has a lifetime warranty, so if you seek a permanent factory repair, you have the option of sending it back.

 

[MrBorland]

Regarding the screws coming out. Instead of just tightening them up and waiting for them to fall out again, try a small amount of blue loctite.

No offense meant to the OP, but it seems to be a common thing nowadays to complain publicly about small problems. I do agree that the screws should not come loose so easily and I too, would be a bit dissapointed if my new gun had a problem, but really, a few screws coming loose is just not that big a deal.

And no offense to you, but read the OP closer: He wrote that "4-5 important screws" continually back out despite blue (and even some red) loctite being used. If it were mine, I'd certainly consider this more than a 1-time inconvenience.

 

[pete2]

First off, it's a lightweight gun, it ain't made of steel, it's a 9mm , it's a new S&W gun. All of these things are potential problems that are not waiting to happen with a standard revolver. My 642 doesn't shoot the screws loose but it ain't titanium. I've run 1000's of rounds thru a 625, never shot a screw loose, in fact, never had a stoppage in a match with it. I can't say that for my semi autos. The only semi I have that hasn't bobbled is a Ruger LC9 but I've only put about 500 rds thru it.
Bottom line, in my experience revolvers have been a lot more reliable than semis.

 

[highpower3006]

He wrote that "4-5 important screws" continually back out despite blue (and even some red) loctite being used. If it were mine, I'd certainly consider this more than a 1-time inconvenience.

I guess I didn't read it close enough and in that case I apologize.

BUT, I find it hard to imagine that a small screw will back out after an application of red loctite. I have been working as a mechanic for the 44 years and have a fair amount of experience with threads and screws coming loose. Close tolerance threads like those on a firearm take very little interference to become locked solid. Thread lockers like loctite are designed to fill any voids between the the threads on the screw and the root of the threads in the hole it is being threaded into.

For instance, I built a AR15 many years ago and used red loctite on the threads for the barrel nut that attach the barrel to the upper receiver. A few months ago I decided that I wanted to refinish the upper and lower because of finish wear. I had to heat that nut up way hot to get the thread locker to release. I have used red and blue loctite on antique motorcycles and cars and I can tell you that you want to very careful of putting red loctite on any threaded hole under 1/4" in size as the screw will frequently break if you try to remove it cold. I can say that I have never had a red loctited cap screw or nut come loose even on early Harley transmission mount bolts.

If those screws keep coming out, there are only two reasons that I can see causing the problem:
1, there is still oil or some other type of contamination in the hole or on the screw threads.
Or 2, the only other thing I can see causing it, is the holes in the frame are oversize in relation to the screw size. I would think that if that were the case, the screws would tend to strip in the holes when they are tightened.

In any case, if it is the first thing causing the issue, a simple proper cleaning of the threads before application of loctite will fix it. If it is the second reason, then shame on S&W for shipping out a gun with such poor quality control.

 

[buck460XVR]

First off, anyone using red locktite on small revolver screws should not be doing their own home gunsmithing. If blue(or purple for small revolver screws) is not holding, you are not cleaning the screw and the assembly correctly before using it or are not tightening the screw properly. Loctite dries and cures in the absence of air and it will not cure properly with a loose screw.

 

[bedbugbilly]

A person can only speak from their own experiences . . .

I primarily shoot revolvers and those are mostly in 38/357 category. I reload and only shoot what I would call "moderate" loads as I don't see the purpose for any other for the type of shooting I do. I have BP C & B, Smiths, Colts, Rugers, Ubertis . . . . and I can honestly say I've never had a screw come loose . . . but then . . . maybe I'm just lucky?

I can't explain why your stews loosen up but perhaps one of the reason is how hot your loads are? Not much different than two identical cars . . . one driven on smooth blacktop and one driven on back roads and lanes with potholes . . . .

As far as dependability . . . I also own several semi-autos and again, maybe I'm lucky but they are dependable as well . . . but I have owned some that I let go due to feeding problems, etc.

To each their own . . . I know that when I load my wheel guns and pull the trigger, they'll go bang . . . that hasn't always been the case with some of the semis I've owned . . . .

 

[Snyper]

I've shot many 1000's of rounds through many different revolvers, of various brands, in calibers from 22 LR to 500 S&W, & honestly, have never had a screw back out...

Me too

The OP's gun seems to be totally FUBAR compared to every revolver I've ever owned, and that includes a Rohm "RG" 22LR