Rethinking the .223 Winchester

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reynolds357

New member
I grew up believing faster was better, bigger and faster was even better, Weatherby was king, and I was an adult kid at Christmas when the line of RUM cartridges came out. My first deer rifle was a 7 Rem mag. My second one was a .35 Whelen. and now I mostly hunt with a 7 RUM.
My son just turned 6. He has been bugging me every day "Daddy, I want to kill a deer." I kept telling him "I will let you go hunting with me." He kept saying "No, I want to kill a deer." I let him hold my mod 7 7-08. Too long for him. My next genius idea was to get my 7-30 Waters TC carbine. Too long for him. Cut a $100 stock? NO. So, I call my dealer and order a left handed, youth, Savage Axis, is .223 Remington. I knew (due to my background) that this cartridge was definitely not up to the task of whitetail hunting.:( I was going to load up some Barnes X to at least give my son a chance of killing a deer. I swore I had some, but I did not. So, 62 Gr Fusion was the "best" I could do on short notice.
Tonight, he shot a 6 point buck at 118 yards. The deer was quartering toward him. The bullet went in under the front left shoulder blade and exited at the back of the rib cage on the other side, leaving a nickel sized exit wound. The deer piled up (drt) and only kicked two times. The inside of the deer was a mess. Lungs were destoryed and the chest cavity was jello.

I said all that to say this, I guess I have been beating myslef to death with magnums for years for no real reason.:rolleyes: My valuation of the .223 Win. as a medium game round has definitely changed.

Before anyone lectures me, there was no doubt in my mind that my son could place the shot. He shoots skeet disks at 100 yards with his .22 rifle. Out of the last 200, he has missed one time. He shot a 3/4" 3 shot group at 100 with this rifle. I had no doubt that he could responsibly place the shot.
He saw the deer before I did and he shot it about a half second after I gave him permission.
 
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Fla_dogman

New member
I changed from the trusty 3006 to a 243 several years ago and never looked back. It's such a pleasure to shoot and easy on the shoulder and does a great job on deer and hogs.
As far as the 223, I've killed several deer, hogs and coyotes with it too in an AR platform.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
 
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Mobuck

Moderator
"I said all that to say this, I guess I have been beating myslef to death with magnums for years for no real reason. My valuation of the .223 Win. as a medium game round has definitely changed."
For the kid's sake, I'm happy that it worked this time. Just keep using the .223 and sooner or later, you'll be far less enamored with it's performance. I've seen quite a few deer shot with the .223-some were effective kills but there have been enough failures to put me off of the .223 band wagon. The .223 is at the low end of the energy scale for deer sized game and no amount of propaganda can change that.
When my kids were using the .223, I sat at their side, cross hairs on the animal ready to send a bullet just in case it was needed.
 
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reynolds357

New member
With the old technology bullets, I had the same apprehensions about the .223. To be honest, I had serious apprehension about the Fusion. The 62 gr fusion went through a shoulder blade, crossed the body, busted a rib and exited. To be honest, I had my tracking dog good and hungry because I was quite sure we would be using him. I was definitely wrong.
 
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jmr40

New member
Welcome to the 21st century. I grew up being told that 30-06 was a middle of the road cartridge and that a 243 was borderline too small for deer. I don't know if that was ever true or not, but it certainly isn't today. I'd rate 243 as ideal for deer size game and borderline too small for elk. Cartridges like 260, or any of the 6.5's are the true middle of the road cartridges today and anything 30 cal is a BIG gun.

The 223 is often maligned by those who have either never seen it used, or seen it used on big game with varmint bullets. With good bullets it is more than adequate for deer size game. It does run out of energy and I wouldn't feel comfortable using it at ranges much beyond 150 yards. Nor on game larger than deer.

I don't chose to hunt with it; primarily because I don't want to limit my range and bear season overlaps deer season here. Many of the places I hunt have more black bear than deer. But if used within it's limitations I'd have no issue at all.
 
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Dufus

New member
Congrats to sonny boy. I am pleased to see young 'uns venture into the woods with their Dads.

I grew up in the times that we used what we had.

Myself and my school age buddies all hunted with small caliber firearms back then. One used a 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, 219 Donaldson, 222 Rem.

One of my buddies killed a full grown Nilgai on the King Ranch with a 222 Rem. Shot behind the ear.

That was before the 223 Rem became public. Also, nowdays it is tough to find a non-varmint style bullet for these calibers as the American manufacturers have decided for us what we can use.

To lose a deer back then was unacceptable. We were all fairly good shooters as is your son.

I honestly can't remember anyone of us wounding and losing a deer.

Of course, as we grew older we graduated to more "manly" calibers. This was decided mostly by our Dads. Fun times without a doubt.
 
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603Country

New member
In the last few years, I've parked my 270 and gone to a 260. I believe that it kills deer just about as well, being a 120 gr bullet at 2850 versus the 270's 130 gr bullet at 3000. That said, I do think the 223 will do the job, but at reasonable range. I wouldn't want to use it on deer much past 100 yards.

My favorite cousin had a very fancy little single shot 223 made for his son. The kid, even when he was small, was a shooting machine. He killed scores of deer with the 223, and according to my cousin, he killed them all with one shot. Although I should have asked what bullet he used, I never have. It's been maybe 20 years or so since the kid was using the 223, so I doubt he was using a Barnes bullet.

I've killed a few deer with the 223, all at less than 100 yards, and I've killed deer with my 220 Swift, but I don't use them for deer any longer. I lost some medium to large hogs because I was undergunned, so I went to the 260. Probably would have gone to a 243 if I had one.

Bottom line is that I think an experienced hunter would do Ok with a 223, knowing when to shoot, when not to shoot, and where to put the bullet, but newbies should have more gun. I say this from experience, having guided corporate hunts back in the day. I have seen some terrible shooting.
 
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Wyosmith

New member
If you have an expanding bullet that will hold together, and a shell that will push it out the other side and exit, you can kill any deer.
Archers do it all the time with "sharp sticks".

As I say so often, it's not the gun, it's the man.

In this case the boy shoots like a real man for sure.

Congratulate him for me too.
 
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AllenJ

New member
Congrats to your son and to you for your success. Any chance we'll get to see a picture?

I was raised by old school shooters and now I find myself in the same boat as jmr40, "being told that 30-06 was a middle of the road cartridge and that a 243 was borderline too small for deer", this is just not the case anymore with modern bullets in my opinion.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
A youthful shooter here got his first deer with a .223.
I congratulated him and he said
"Most people ask me how many shots it took."
I said, "OK, how many?"
"One."
 
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Rmart30

New member
Congrats to your son.


I was raised by old school shooters and now I find myself in the same boat as jmr40, "being told that 30-06 was a middle of the road cartridge and that a 243 was borderline too small for deer", this is just not the case anymore with modern bullets in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I too was in that same boat. I bought my first "deer rifle" about 1990 and I went with what the "old timers" told me I had to have to have to kill a deer. A 30-06.
Didnt buy my next centerfire hunting rifle till about 1999. Picked up a 7mm08 and havent looked back at my 06.
Getting away from magnums is a growing trend from what Ive seen in the last few years. May be because we are getting older and wiser.
 
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Scorch

New member
You don't need all the horsepower, belts, fire-belching, and testosterone-raising magnums. I started with a 30-30. After I had killed 3 deer, somebody informed me it was underpowered, so I switched to a 7X57. Used that until somebody told me it was underpowered, so I got a 375 H&H. Nobody told me that one was underpowered, so I got a 8mm Rem Mag. Again, no one told me it was underpoweered, but my head and shoulders were aching from shooting it. I dropped back to a 243, and it killed just fine, so I went back to the 7X57 again and stayed there.

I have no doubt that a 223 will kill a deer, absolutely none. It is a fine cartridge, easy to shoot, and accurate. If it were legal here, my son would shoot his first deer with one.
 
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bacardisteve

New member
I just got done loading up some 75gr swift scirocco rounds for my 8 year old son. Thinking maybe this is the year for him to get it done
.
 
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Sarge

New member
A 65 grain Sierra SP at 2880 fps is all you need for 200 yard deer, assuming you put it exactly where it needs to do the damage. But a 308/150 Nosler BT cruising about 2900 does it with a lot more authority and adds about 150 yards of useful range.
 
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bamaranger

New member
two

Bamaboy killed his first two whitetails with .223, as I've posted here before. One resulted in a through and through wound, ample blood trail, and a typical 50 yd or so death sprint, the other, no exit, no blood, but the deer dropped inside 50 yds as well. The no exit deer was shot at about 30 yds, I figure the velocity was high enough that the slug expanded dramatically enough to effect its ability to exit. Heck, you see that with bigger calibers. The slug was under the hide on the opposite side. The load in both instances was a Federal factory tactical bonded 55 grain. (could have been a 62) Not a large sample pool.We did it, but there was plenty of prep & practice, controlled conditions, ie food plots and blinds or shooting houses with support and I was right there coaching. A good friend started his grandson with a Mini 14 with good results as well. My brother in-law killed quite a few with a .22-250, and there are many positive posts here on this thread. So it can be done.

We moved to bigger rifles in short order, 7.62x39 and .243 and I felt a lot more comfortable with the arrangement. I have indeed realized that you don't need a .30/180 to take whitetails, and hunt .243 a good bit myself these days. But I have to agree with Mobuck, the .223 is on the low end of the scale as a deer cartridge. I firmly believe a 7.62x39 bolt rifle is just as easy to shoot, and a better choice as a youth rifle.

The .223 is seeing more and more use as the AR craze continues, and folks search for something to do with their black rifles. While we are enthusiasts here, and choose our loads accordingly, there are still quite a few folks who are not ammo savvy and will take varmint ammo after medium game. The .223 is very unforgiving of that mistake, as it is of poor shooting, and choosing poor angles. Honestly, there are just better tools for the job.
 
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