Restraints (A FUDlike Question)

[Gunslinger]

We often discuss what type of guns we carry, reloads, flashlights and other accessories. But we have not yet discussed what type of restraints we carry, if any. Not every situation we encounter can be solved by simply shooting all the bad guys and letting God sort them out. What happens when we have a situation that requires holding the bad guy until the police arrive to take charge of him?
I carry a pair of thumb cuffs in a trouser pocket. Does anyone else carry any type of restraints or have you thought about it?

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!

 

[chadintex]

I thought about it and dismissed it. If I have a flashlight, handcuffs, pepper spray, a knife, and a gun, it could be taken for a rape kit or something. We already have to deal with LEO's who say things like "why do you need a gun" (not bashing LEO's) without having to deal with this. Just my opinion.

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Abandon your animosities and make your sons Americans. Robert E. Lee

Beware the three D's: The dumb, drunk, and deranged.

chadintex@hotmail.com

 

[mk86fcc]

Couple sets of looped zip-ties kept in the truck (also some pararcord & duct tape, which could certainly serve a restraining purpose), handcuffs and more zip-ties in the bedroom (don't go there...) at the house; seldom carry anything on me.

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed

 

[Jim V]

I never thought of having any type of restraints with me, before I retired from police work, I carried a set of 'cuffs while off duty (sometimes). Look, getting regulation handcuffs on someone that does not want them on is hard enough when you have lots of practice doing it. How much do you practice getting thumbcuffs of somebody who wants nothing to do with them or you. Do you want to get that close where he/she can grab your pistol and use it against you? If you don't want to get that close, do you tell your wife or kid or some stranger to slap the 'cuffs on the BG and offer them as a hostage?

Bad juju thinking about it.



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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

 

[Kevinw]

I carry about a Dozen Zip-Ties with me.. Once you have those on they are NOT Coming off. that is all there is to it. As a Civilian Handcuffs are kept where they serve me best. *evil grin*

 

[LawDog]

I'm going to second Jim V on this one -- handcuffing a critter isn't anything the average Joe needs to be thinking about.

Tell your critter to face away from you, get down on his knees, cross his ankles and interlace his fingers behind his head -- and wait for the cops. If he won't do the above things, then he ain't gonna set still for you to put handcuffs on him.

LawDog

 

[Gunslinger]

I can't think of anyone I have cuffed that actually wanted to be cuffed. But having something as a restraint beats struggling with the BG until the police arrive. Cuffing is never easy but it is far easier than a prolonged wrestling match with no means to end it.

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!

 

[45King]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunslinger:
I can't think of anyone I have cuffed that actually wanted to be cuffed. But having something as a restraint beats struggling with the BG until the police arrive. Cuffing is never easy but it is far easier than a prolonged wrestling match with no means to end it.

[/quote]

Well, let's see....prolonged wrestling match...you've got a gun...bad guy wants it...if he gets it, he'll use it against you...eminent threat of deadly force...shoot the bastid! (Kneecap or foot?)



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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center

 

[dinosaur]

As a retired LEO with a heart condition, there`s no way I`m jumping into that briar patch. If I have the need to pull a gun on someone to stop him from doing something illegal, I`m damn sure not going to allow him the opportunity to get close enough to disarm me. ADA to armed citizen, "You`ve stated that when you presented your firearm, the deceased stopped what he was doing and put his hands in the air. You then approached him and shot him at point blank range. Interesting." If he runs away, so what? As long as I`ve prevented him from doing what he started out to do, I`ll let the real cops worry about the capture. Cuffing with one hand only happens in the movies.
I would also check local laws on civilians carrying restraining devices.

 

[Hal]

For a non-LEO-Holding anybody for any reason is an excellent way to end up on the wrong end of a kidnapping conviction.
Keep them at bay, use whatever force is necessary to maintain your own well being and take excellent notes of their description and actions. I may be wrong by macho book 'em Dano standards, but enforcement is hardly me responsibility right? I believe my greatest contribution in evry case but the extreme would be as an unshakeable and factual witness. In case of the extreme, that's pretty much why I own a gun. Now if the ****ing State of Ohio would see fit,,,,,,

 

[KaMaKaZe]

Thumb cuffs? kinky.

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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"

 

[Mike Irwin]

ANOTHER vote for Jim V.

Anyone who tries to cuff/tie an assailant that they are holding at gunpoint is in serious jeopardy of being killed.

If the person won't lay down and wait for police, you know what you do?

You let him WALK AWAY. You get a description, you give it to police when they get there, but unless that person is posing an immediate threat to you or another person, you may be violating the law by attempting to further restrain him.

This, of course, will vary according to your jurisdiction's citizen's arrest laws, and your state's laws on the use of deadly force.

Everyone needs to remember one thing about the firearms that they carry. They are FOR PERSONAL DEFENSE. They do not turn any of us into junior troopers.

Some months ago someone semi-snidely asked me if I thought I was going to be interrupting robberies as the reason for my carrying a gun.

I think he was a little bit shocked when I said that if I did come across such a situation, and it was a straight up robbery, with no violence, my gun would never leave its holster.

If, however, I'm threatened, or someone else is threatened with violence, then all previous bets are off.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

 

[Monkeyleg]

I've thought about this scenario a lot. About the furthest I'd go would be to order the BG to lie down and cross legs, clasp hands, etc.
If he ran off, fine. If he charged at me, I'd
assume he meant to do me harm, and shoot.

There's still a nicely polished set of S&W handcuffs in my drawer, but that's for slapping on my wife's wrists when she starts reading the rummage sale ads.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.

 

[Dr.Rob]

a jog in the park with your gun, and a stocking hat is a nice run on a cold day.

a jog in the park with a stocking hat a knife and a pair of cuffs is a rape kit.

never ever carry handcuffs.. us civies aren't cops, and we don't want our intensions misconstrued. They can cuff the bad guy when they put him on a stretcher.

(you also may want to reconsider that tactical black jogging suit)

I carry a swiss army knife, its a good tool and far more useful and innocuous than a big chisel point "tactical" folder or other such rambo knife. Its says "boyscout" not "troublemaker" when the cop finds it.

Anyone else? I'd like to hear fromn our LEO pals on this one.

Dr.Rob

 

[Dead]

Hmm I would favor the Silk Scarf! Those dont leave marks. umm Nevermind...

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Dead [Black Ops]

 

[Gunslinger]

Perhaps it is the cop in me after having spent my entire career in that profession, but I prefer to at least have the means to restrain someone if needed.
There are any number of situations in which one cannot simply shoot the BG but in which he is not going to simply go away. If he is unarmed and wants to fight and not leave the means to restain him is a valuable tool.
Rape kit?

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!

 

[Ed Brunner]

We have a whole sub-culture who believes that it is too dangerous to protect ourselves. If he doesn't want to wait for the police, thats cool, let him go. He might sue you for kidnapping.
Of course he also might come back to take care of the only witness.
What makes people believe that criminals are normal and think and act like the rest of "normal" people?
We let criminals make the rules and like good citizens we obey????
Am I the only one here who is missing the point?

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed

 

[Mike Irwin]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course he also might come back to take care of the only witness.
What makes people believe that criminals are normal and think and act like the rest of "normal" people?

[/quote]

Uh.... Isn't that why we're carrying guns in the first place, Ed?

Gunslinger,

If the bad guy is unarmed, you're armed, and he still wants to fight, what makes you think that you're going to be able to get a set of cuffs on him in the first place?

Maybe... pull your gun on him? If he STILL wants to fight, well, that could very well be his problem... If someone is trying to assault you, you don't necessarily have to compensate 100% for his stupidity.

I just had the thought that, in fact, a gun IS a means of restraint.



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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

 

[Long Path]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.Rob:
Anyone else? I'd like to hear fromn our LEO pals on this one.

Dr.Rob[/quote]

I agree. I'd like to hear what... wait! I'm an LEO pal!

Folks, when off-duty, I carry my cop stuff in the car. If I think I need to go play cop, then I get my cop stuff. But the pistol I carry off-duty is primarily for the same reason the rest of you carry: "The Gravest Extreme." You don't carry that pistol to go out and enforce the law-- you carry it to protect yourself and those around you! While it's great if you can arrest a violent felon at gunpoint, your goal is reached when you've stopped him.

When I take all that gear off, I'm glad to be shed of it. One can't spend his entire life with a Batman utility belt laden with an answer to every exigency life may present. The likelyhood that you'll need to use your pistol is distant, but significant enough that it's worth carrying. The chance that you'll be presented with a need to use your pistol AND to cuff your assailant is far less likely, and far less necessary. Decreased likelyhood and decreased gravity mean you really don't need to lug restraints around on your already-heavy belt.

A cell-phone is a far better investment in space, weight, and inconvenience, if you must carry something on you to capture BG's. If he's pursuing an act that is so disturbing that the man MUST be arrested at once, draw down on him, get him to assume LawDog's above-described position, and use your weak hand to dial 911. (Now try to find a good rest for your pistol, because it gets heavy after several minutes of extending it at the B.G. Think I'm joking? You oughta see some of the training tapes where backup was requested while a felon is held at gunpoint. Sometimes it gets comical...) You can also use it to check on movie times and call in late for work when caught in traffic. Try THAT with your Peerless handcuffs!

There's a reason that most states that issue concealed carry licenses don't issue badges; the armed citizenry are not pseudo-cops. They're in charge of their own lives, not charged with others.

For the record, I carry a Swiss Army knife, too. I might not be the coolest ninja in the forest, but my cans get opened, and my bottlecaps get lifted...

 

[Gunslinger]

If the bad guy is unarmed, you're armed, and he still wants to fight, what makes you think that you're going to be able to get a set of cuffs on him in the first place?

Mike, I have cuffed probably thousands of people in my life time. Dang few of them wanted to be cuffed.
Knowing human nature the way we do we can not necessarily expect everyone we encounter to act rationally. As a police officer I have had people ignore the fact that a gun was being pointed at them, ignore commands (I can be rather....forceful in verbal commands. Think Drill Sergeant here ), be totaly unarmed, yet still want to fight. No one, LEO or civilian, can just up and shoot someone that us unarmed because they want to fight. If the person refuses to either leave or sit down with their fingers laced and still chooses to fight what are you going to do?
After my retirement I was attacked by a drunk in a restaurant parking lot because I looked to someone he knew. Being stone cold sober I was in better shape to fight than he was. I was also much larger and physically stronger. I attempted to convince him I was not whom he thought I was and to just leave the area. (I was trying to get in my car to leave as well.) His (sober) girlfriend was trying to get him to get in the car. He ignored all of this and continued to try to fight. He then picked up a bottle from the parking lot and threw it at another patron coming out of the restaurant. (Notice he threw the bottle and no longer had it in his hand to be used a weapon.) I eventually was forced to place cuffs on him and wait for the police. I could have left after struggling with him and wondered if he had attacked another customer afterwards. I could have left and left him free to follow me in his intoxicated state unto the street. I could have left and left him free to call the police and inform them that I had assaulted him. I could not have shot him.
I'm getting the impression that some here feel that simply pointing a gun at someone and telling them to "freeze and reach for the sky" works the same as in the movies. Or that it is exceptable to shoot someone because they want to fight with no weapon of their own. I to, think part of my mistake was not taking into consideration that the average person is not trained in placing cuffs on a struggeling person.

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!