Report from Street Crimes Unit Banquet

[Rob Pincus]

Well, I wasn't ready for what I was going to, that's for damn sure.

You can up my list of friends by about 200, and close-like-brothers-friends by 2 or 3, also.

A suspected, these guys are just your regular LEO's.. maybe a little more dedicated than the average, and definitely a lot more under the microscope.

They are crying out for Increased Tactical/Handgun training.. apparently the only "extra" training they get is in "Community Police" and "Verbal Resolution" and the like. Contrary to the impression some people are under, they do not get any SWAT or military type training for SCU.

Furthermore, I got in depth demo and description from several sources of a typical stop/search.. and they always begin with an interview, no jumping out from behind trees and ordering people up against the wall for frisking, etc...

I also found out a lot about where and when these guys are looking for guns.. they aren't standing in front of the NY Stock Exchange and throwing Brokers against the wall during their lunch break, if you know what I mean.

In an environment where there is no such thing as legal concealed carry and the drug business is rampant, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to ask a guy with a bulge under his jacket who has been standing on the same corner for three hours in the middle of the night if he is carrying a weapon and if he will submit to a pat-down.

In addition to Jim Fotis (Exec. Dir. LEAA) and Col. R. Brown (Pub. SOF mag), other speakers included a black reverend from Harlem and the Retired Chaplain of NYPD, Charles Kaladzjian (sp?). All the speakers made important observations about the thanklessness of a society that turns on its protectors. Of course, Col. Brown was colorful, but the Rev. Kaladzjian was especially so, he certainly pulled no punches when it come to how he felt about SCU, Sharpton or Clinton.. I'd go to church more often if there were more spiritual leaders like him.

As for Sean Carroll (the shooter who has hired his own lawyer), well, anyone who has a bad thing to say about him might as well be calling my mother a whore, because I'll react about the same. I spent about 30 mins talking to him alone and I met his wife as well. He is a hard working cop who got caught in a bad deal. You could feel the respect, love and compassion from his brother officers everytime they passed by or patted him on the shoulder. It was a very moving situation, and I am not a big softy, by any means. He made a mistake that anyone with a badge could've made. Now he is a political tool for Al Sharpton (fat racist bastard) and a victim of a thankless society which he has risked his life for years to clean up.

Everyone who has protested him and called for him to indicted or convicted of any crime should be thrown into East River with cement shoes. From Susan Sarandon to the clueless welfare dopes that Sharpton bussed in for the last protest rally.

Personally, I think we should take up a little collection for his defense fund. Sean has hired an independent lawyer and declined representation through the PBA out of an (understandable) fear that they may look for a scapegoat and the PBA would be under a lot of pressure from the dept. This is not a cheap thing for him to be doing.
I have the address for the Sean Carroll Defense Fund, if anyone wants it, or feel free to send a donation (made out to SCDF) to the FOUP address and I will forward it with a collection that I am taking up from local LEOs.


In case anyone has missed it, I am no longer objective on this topic. Please comment appropriately.

------------------
-Essayons

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 22, 1999).]

 

[BAB]

Rob---thanks for the report!

BTW, would you be adverse to posting the address for the SCDF?

 

[Byron Quick]

Rob,

I wouldn't have guessed at your loss of objectivity Glad you warned us.

The only thing I don't understand is this. If, God forbid, I am involved in a shooting that later turns out to be a mistake, what will happen to me? Will my saying, gee, I'm sorry, I thought he had a gun make everything alright? Or will I be prosecuted for, at the least, voluntary manslaughter? Will the chances for my conviction in this scenario be very, very high? By what rationale, do police expect different treatment before the law than the private citzen in like cases? This is not a criticism of the officers involved in the NY shooting. If I had been with them, I would probably have been shooting, also. That fact does not affect the relevance of my question.

 

[Rob Pincus]

No, I don't mind posting the Address, but If someone from TFL sends anything besides a letter of support or a donation and I find out about it, they will either be banned from TFL for life, or I will not be back.


The Sean Carrol Defense Fund
P.O. Box 11
Brightwaters, NY 11718-0011


Spartacus,

I don't even know what to say to that. I guess, in my soul, I feel like there is no equality on the street.. in reality, under the law or even in the eyes of the media.

We do not live in the Utopia that our society could be if it was truly governed by the Constitution and the Constitution alone.

I can't make a broad sweeping comment on what standard police officers should be held to, as opposed to other citizens, but I can tell you that Sean Carrol and his fellow officers might be guilty of negligent manslaughter.. at the very, very MOST.
And the only reason that Diallo is dead is because he disobeyed not only the officers instructions, but the laws of common sense and the laws of our country (he was an illegal immigrant). If the failure to obey the officers came from a language barrier, then I hope all the other non-english speaking people in this country catch the clue and get with our program here.


[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 22, 1999).]

 

[Spectre]

It sounds like quite a meeting, Rob. Hold fast to good friends, one only encounters so many.

As far as your reply to Byron...well, you get sincere thanks for your honesty. I think no officer should receive preferential treatment, anymore than his occupation should have him castigated. Let's keep working toward this.

 

[boing]

To place the blame entirely on the deceased is wrong.

Have these officers never dealt with non-English speaking people, or people who just didn't do what they were told?
In New York City!?!
Speak English or die?
Does Diallo's alien status justify less restraint of judgement, even if it was known to the officers?

The good/bad judgement involved when deciding whether or not to take a human life is the issue. The consequences of killing someone are immense, for all involved, and they should be. Those consequences serve to temper our actions toward maximum restraint, and I don't believe maximum restraint was used by the man who fired the first shots.

Let me stress strongly that I do not believe any of these men acted out of malice, or are bad people, or are 'rogue cops'! My heart goes out to them and their families for what they are having to go through.

But making a mistake that kills another cannot be without consequences.

Spartacus asked the big question regarding the fate of these men:

What would happen to me?

Respectfully,
boing

[This message has been edited by boing (edited April 22, 1999).]

 

[bookkie]

Rob:

I know how you feel. When growing up our local sheriffs department was heavy into community affairs. One of the Officers taught a firearms class at the local Jr. College. After taking the class with him, we became good friends. Did a lot of competition shooting with him over the next several years.

One day he pulled over a couple of men for speeding. After he got out of his car and was approaching the drivers side the passenger got out of the car and started running around the back towards him with a machete raised over his head. At the same time the driver pulled a gun from under the seat and was going to shoot. Brad first shot the driver in the head killing him instantly, then turned and fired on the passenger as he was clearing the back end of the car on Brad's side. This man was killed also. Both men were out on parole at the time. Guess they never figured to be pulled over by the Northern California pistol champion 8 years running.

Although Brad was never charged with any crime, he was dismissed from the police force for using excessive force on the criminal with the machete by our glorious city council. To this day I still don't know what they expected him to do. Sit by why the other man sliced him up? Last I heard he was never able to get a job in LE anywhere. Well anyway, this always left a bitter taste in my mouth. Brad did more in the community than most people I ever knew. He was always out with the kids doing something. Taught me that LOE's are our friends, not our enemies. Sure there are always bad apples in any bunch, but overall most LOE's are real decent folk.

Mistakes are made in every field of business... just happens that in LE some of those mistakes can be deadly. I just wish that we had a justice system that would recognize this and dish out true justice. I do feel for these men, because I know enough about our system of justice, that if they need a scapegoat... there is no lawyer in the world that is going to protect them.

I believe that all should be held accountable to the same standards before the law.... LOE's should be no more or no less... but under circumstances such as you describe.... this should be taken into consideration. After all it is part of their job. I know we all wish them well.

Richard

 

[Rob Pincus]

If you were doing what those guys do every day I would feel the same way about your situation, trust me, Boing.

Meanwhile, if you do not go looking for confrontations and have to give orders to non-english speaking suspicious characters whom you believe to be armed and dangerous, you aren't likely to be put in that situation.

Spartacus and I have discussed, at length, the issue of LEOs living under a completely different set of rules and requierments when it comes to when and how they present their weapons. I believe that he feels that there shouldn't be any difference between carrying on duty and carrying as a CCW holder.. regardless of that belief, the REALITY is that it is vastly different.

LEOs have to use their weapons in an offensive or threatening manner as a course of doing business. I cannot imagine a CCW holder having to do that more than once or twice in a lifetime, IF EVER. You can't try to draw parallels that don't exist.

The truth is that if YOU walked up to a guy on a stoop and asked him to put his arms in the air, and he ran, and you shot him, regardless of whether he had a gun or not, you would ne wrong. You are not a cop. You would have no business being in that situation, and may have no idea what that situation is actually like.

Is there someone out there who thinks Diallo didn't do anything wrong? Is there someone out there who thinks that not speaking the language gives someone the right to disobey police officers?
(note, "did anything wrong" is not the same as "deserved to die"... I understand that, but in assigning blame for the death, we must look at who was doing wrong.. the officers or the illegal immagrant ?)

 

[Ed Brunner]

I'm sure the officers in question are nice guys.The way I see it they were wrong. Any time four officers fire 41 rounds at somebody ten feet away it raises suspicion.The reason they began firing is because one of the officers shouted "GUN".
Apparently this was wrong.There was no gun.
Once the officer shouted "GUN" the guy became fair game because the others would have to assume that he had seen a gun.
The fact that the guy didnt understand English is unfortunate but not a crime
I agree that the officers need more training,but they will likely be treated like Rodney King's arresting officers and face federal civil rights charges.
My point is that they should have received adequate training.
Look at it like this.If everything were the same exceot that the guy was only shot once do you think there would be this problem??
Honest answers only,please.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed

 

[Rob Pincus]

Well, I guess that is the problem, Ed, the result is the same, the guy is dead.
He is dead becuase he disobeyed common sense and the orders of the officers.. whether it be by one shot or by 41, it is a tragic mistake.

I have little doubt that, with the likes of Al Shaprton and the upcoming election year in which any chance to pull down Guilianni and his PD would be taken, any non-100%-legitimate shooting would've been exploited. This is all politics. I, personally, know of two much more questionable shootings in the past three weeks that haven't even made national press. If the officers had been Black and fired 100 shots and Diallo had actually been "John Smith, unemployed white guy" we never would've heard about it.

Every officer is held to his own gauge of the situation in almost every shooting investigation I am familiar with. "My partner said "Gun"," is not an acceptable answer to "Why did you shoot Mr. X?".... Each officer needs to, quite literally, be "in fear for his life.".. It is possible that a partner yelling "Gun!" while a suspect is moving rapidly could put an officer in fear for his life, however.

And what is the fascination with the number of shots?? 3 of the 4 officers fired less than 10 rounds?! The people keep throwing up the 41 number are starting to sound like Fienstien and her "Big Clips" BS..


And the distance was more than 10 feet for almost all of the shots fired.


------------------
-Essayons

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 22, 1999).]

 

[Dennis]

One point Rob made we haven't addressed. No CHL/CCW in NYC. If civilians received proper training before getting a CHL, some bad folks would get CHLs. But, if we believe our own rhetoric, both crime and firearms accidents would decrease.

Rob,
I think I'll give you a day or so before I even try to agree with you. (chuckle) I'll take your dire threats at face value (at least for a few days).

(quiet comment: A couple Tums and a Shiner Bock usually helps me.....)

 

[Jim March]

Rob, I can understand how this situation went south, and I'm not ready to criticize about this shooting.

However...as a group, does this unit support non-elitist shall-issue CCW with 16 to 24 hours training, background check, etc?

I ask because due to their role, their collective voice might go a long ways towards convincing the Chief to liberalize legal self defense. And ALL of the "unequal protection under the law" problems in discretionary CCW I'm fighting now in California exist to an EXTREME degree in NYC.

NYPD's Chief has decided that somebody like Ted Turner has a greater right to defend their life than a "peon". That is absolutely 100% WRONG and if those cops support that choice, they too are so wrong they've lost the moral right to ever make another gun carry bust.

They can either speak up, or they can go find honest work. Without the support of the rank and file these illegal policies on the part of the brass wouldn't last a day.

Jim March

http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw

 

[Ed Brunner]

Rob;You make my point. Any four white guys who think they can shoot an unarmed black guy 41 times in a black neighborhood need more training.
To compare me citing the 41 rounds to DiFi and the ten rounders is missing the point. As I said,if only one round had been fired we wouldnt be having the uproar.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed

 

[Dan]

I for one support these guys 100%. I may get flamed for saying this, but I personally feel that an agressive approach to law enforcement is often time warranted.

This is not meant to say that Diallo's life is not worthy of respect and remorse for it's loss. That was a true tragedy. From what I've been able to piece together is that the officers involved truly thought they were in a deadly force situation. I will not armchair quarterback what they should or should not have done. No one else should either. No one else was there.

It would compound a tragedy to ruin these officer's lives and careers in order to maintain a good political face. More training seems to definitely be in order, but would more training prevent all possible tragedies? No, of course not. Feel good programs like community policing and the like tend to mask the fact that there is a war on the streets, a war that all cops fight when they go to work to protect and serve thier communities.

I think Diallo's death is one of those sad misfortunes of war. Again, this is not meant to belittle Diallo. I'm not a religious individual, but my prayers go out to everyone involved, Diallo, his family, the officers and thier families.

------------------
Dan

Check me out at:
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm

 

[Rob Pincus]

Ed,

SOrry, I did not mean you ont he "people throwing out 41"... I meant in the media. People who have no idea who long (or not so long.. I should say) it takes for four men to fire 41 rounds. They make it sound like the had to break for lunch somewhere around 30 and went back for more afterwards.


Jim,

Every Man I talked to was 100% for CCW. Many acknowledged that it would make their job more difficult in some cases, but they also thought it would make their job less demanding.. many seemed to sense that it would give them allies, on even voiced that very opinion.


Also of note was one Hispanic SCU officer who felt especially slighted by the media onslought. He feels like the black and hispanic SCU officers are being completely neglected at best, in some circles they are being protrayed as "traitors to their people".. rather than gettgin credit they deserve fro helping to clean up the neighborhoods where "there people" live and work, they are being attacked by people with political agendas...
I really felt bad for that guy, in particular. He and I talked for a long time about firearms training issues as well. He is one fo the few cops I have met who was ready to admit from the word "go" that he didn't feel like he had enough firearms/tactical training.

 

[DC]

I think ALL of you should cool down.
These are the facts:
1) Police have a rough job for too little pay
2) Police are human and humans make mistakes
3) Police voluntarily took the job
4) Police have life/death authority at any particular moment
5) Allegedly all are equal under the law
6) If you screw up (police and non-police) you have to face the music
7) Police shouldn't get a walk if they screw up, neither should they be crucified more than any citizen would be
8) The victim who was shown to be innocent of the suspected crime and DID NOT assault the police, should not be picked apart in order to save the police who killed him. Lack of English capability is a totally bogus and BS defense

According to Rob:
1) An appalling lack of training and periodic qualifying
2) An obvious politisation of the process, i.e local gadflies (Sharpton) and internal city who would sacrifice these cops for appeasement

Therefore:

1) Remove politics from the cop's hearing/trial
2) If no malice is shown, place a significant portion of the responsibility on those who deserve it...the authorities who neglected or with-held the means of adequate training/upkeep
3) If these cops did indeed choke...take them off the street permanently...its rough but thats life, these guys will never recover and not second guess themselves. Find another job for them to use their knowledge and experience.


------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

 

[Dennis]

Now THAT I'll support 100%!

 

[Rob Pincus]

Great, Except that you ignore/assume several things:

1. Not enough training is not the same as "an appauling lack". I am of the opinion that no one has "enough" training.

2. No one is claiming that a Lack of english is a defense of what the officer's did, it is an attempt to give Diallo an excuse for his incredibly Stupid and Reckless behavior. Maybe he spoke perfect english, in which case he was willfully disobeying and attempting to evade the officers.

3. There are officers on the street TONIGHT who are second guessing themselves each time they clear leather because of the politically motivated attacks on the four shooters, the SCU and the entire NYPD.

4. To me, to "choke" is to hesitate at the moment of truth. These officers did not do that, by any stretch. But I fear that other officers may choke in the future.. and they may die with the name "diallo" on their minds because of it.

5. I think a argument can be made that these officers DID NOT screw up:

Q:What is the standard for "justifying" a police shooting?
A: The officer must be in "fear for his life"

Q: Did these officers have reason to be in fear for their lives?
A: Apparently, they did.

That's about as simple as I can make it.

How many of us, charged with apprehending an armed serial rapist, approaching a suspect in the dark. The suspect runs, then, as you begin to catch up to him, he turns quickly and reaches into his jacket.. you see something black coming out in his hand..

How much longer do you wait before you fire?? Be honest. Do you wait to hear a shot? Do you wait for one of your partners to get hit? To get hit yourself? To risk never seeing your children again? Your wife?

Who has seen the footage of the kids running out of the school in Denver? Where were there hands? Why were they like that? If Diallo had assumed the natural non-threatening postion of compliance and surrender, the position he was told to assume, he'd be alive today.


------------------
-Essayons

 

[DC]

Well Rob....
You better get consistent with your definition of "sheeple" because it sounds to me like you expect INSTANT acquiescence to authority, or you deserve to die. BTW, those that are legislating gun control are our "authorities" too. We just acquiesce, huh?




------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

 

[Byron Quick]

Pardon me if I am in error but I held the belief that law enforcement could use deadly force in certain areas not involving "fear of their life." As in perpetrators fleeing the scene of a felony. I know for a fact that the Georgia State Patrol has killed people for speeding and failure to stop for the police once their flight endangered others on the highway. Granted this was about twenty years ago but I was on such a scene shortly after the shooting at least twice.

As a CCW holder, I have been faced with the hand in the jacket pocket scenario twice. Both times were also accompanied by threats to kill me. One was in daylight and the other was under the halogen lights of a convenience store. In both situations, I broke my thumbstrap but did not draw my weapon. But I was making fire/don't fire decisions about 10 times a second. In darkness in either situation, I would have most likely fired. I can't be absolutely certain but I believe that neither man was armed with a handgun. In both situations, I had witnesses to the threats to shoot me.

I still would like to hear someone, perhaps a police department attorney, explain to me a rationale for holding law enforcement officers to a different standard.