Reloading the .38 Wadcutter

[noylj]

Thought I would share what I have found about trying to handload .38Special 148gn HBWCs. The first thing I discovered in my S&W Model 52 was that cast bullets were worse than swaged HBWC for accuracy and both were significantly worse than factory ammo. Factory ammo, even S&B, is hard to beat.
I tried various brands of bullets and reloading techniques and put well over 1000 rounds through my gun.
First thing I discovered was that the bullet seating operation was significantly swaging the bullet diameter and any diameter under 0.358 just wasn't target grade accurate. I tried various resizing dies and expander dies (.38 Super, .38S&W, and 9mm Mak). The first break-through was using unsized brass. The next break-through was significant, but really hurt--over-expand the case so the bullet is set down into the case about 1/4 of the length of the bullet. I had a old RCBS expander that did this perfectly. Bullet seating just requires a seating punch that matches the bullet. Most bullets have a "dimple" and most seating punches are just flat. I hollowed out the center of the seating punch until the punch just hit the bullet sides and did not flatten the dimple.
Now, for the next "secret." For a semi-auto, use a Redding Profile Crimp die and set it for the same crimp as a factory round (or an additional 1/16 turn in case of spring back. I could not believe the difference with this die compared to the other roll crimp dies I had. They thing is God's gift to reloaders who need a very good roll crimp that won't damage the case.
These rounds chamber just fine in the Model 52 (the slide seats them just fine), but they are a very tight fit in a revolver. For a revolver, use a Lee Factory Crimp Die, again set using a factory round.
Next, for a bullet. Speer and Hornady are fine (though I applied Lee Liquid Also to the Hornady bullets to improve accuracy and minimize leading), but the star of the bullet world is the Remington (target master?) wadcutter. The Speer and Hornday bullets are 0.358" in diameter over the full length of the bullet. The Remingtons are 0.359" at the front and 0.360-0.361 at the rear. I am not sure if the low pressures are really obdurating (sp?) the bullets, but the Remington already has the size it needs to seal the bore. Also, they are about 1/2 the cost of competing brands and the messy graphite/grease lube (that is what is looks like) seems to eliminate leading. They aren't as pretty as the others, but they sure can shot small groups.
So, the key I found was to have the bullet slightly larger than bore diameter and do everything you can not to swage the bullet during seating or crimping.

 

[Bailey Boat]

Consider a taper crimp die and you didn't say what velocity you're running them at?????

 

[kraigwy]

Good post NOYIJ, something to try.

Consider a taper crimp die and you didn't say what velocity you're running them at?????

I've found taper crimp dies swedge the bullet hurting accuracy in the Model 52. Velocity in these guns are kept quite low. Don't want to go over 2.8 grns of Bullseye or similar loads. All you are trying to do is punch holes in paper.

The problem I have with my 52 is chambering. I don't know if I have a tight chamber or not, but often with reloads is chambering them just right to get the gun to go in battery.

I've found the Lee Carbide factory crimp die with a carbide ring at the bottom of the die works good. It resizes the loaded round as its pulled out of the die.

Now here is where I differ. A lot of people seat and crimp as a different process, which normally I agree. But I make it a three step process for my Model 52. I seat at one station, roll crimp on a second, and a third step with the Lee die.

This really isn't much of a problem because I load on a progressive press. The Dillon RL 1000, (great grandfather of the 1050). It has the extra stations for the three step process. I can really crank them out, which gives me a lot of rounds for my 52 and practice loads for my 642 Revolver.

I use cast bullets, a Sacco DE Wad cuter. The swedge bullets probably shoot better but I'm not good enough as a pistol shooter to tell the difference.

As an unrelated side note, anyone using speed loaders with their revolvers should give the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die a try, like the name says, it, after seating sizes the case to factory specks and they fall into the chamber, making for faster revolver reloads.

 

[ForneyRider]

I'm trying my first WC-type bullet in the S&W 19-5.

158gr JSP(H110) and 140gr Hornady FTX(Power Pistol) were easy to load. But not sure the Lee deluxe pistol set will seat the WC bullets.

How much W231 are ya'll using?

 

[spacecoast]

The Lee die set will work fine.

 

[Jim Watson]

3.2 gr Win 231.

 

[zippy13]

I agree with noylj, those dirty and cheap Remingtons are very happy in the Model 52, and they do well in my Model 10-8, too. And, like Captain Stuart, I'm not enough of a pistol shot to tell the difference (between the Remingtons and home cast WCs) unless I'm shooting from a rest. My initial charge was the tradational 2.7 gr of Bullseye and no other loads I've tried do any better.

 

[noylj]

Taper crimp for .38 Special Wadcutter

I have only been reloading for 35 years and never used a taper crimp on a .38 special. The wadcutter needs a slight roll crimp. The Redding Profile die produces the correct roll crimp and smooths the over-expanded case. The second best crimp die was the Lee FCD (which is also a roll-crimp for the .38 Special), but it would very slightly swage down the bullet diameter. Everything I have done indicates that the whole reloading method must not swage the bullet down below .358 and leaving the Remington at .359-.361 is an unbeatable method to achieve very small groups.
I have never had any feeding problems with 5 different Model 52s. If I use unsized and overly expanded cases and any crimp die other than the Redding Profile Crimp or the Lee FCD, then I have chambering problems. But I know that because I reload and check the ammo using the barrel from the gun.
PS: I have seen NO effect on group size from mixed brass or the use of +P cases.
I have settled on RP cases as they have thinner walls and are easier to set up to avoid swaging down the bullet diameter during seating and crimping. I also very quickly gave away all the nickel cases I had as the over-expansion was leading to frequent split case mouths and the nickel was coming off in the Redding and Lee crimp dies and putting striations on the cases. I don't know what the secret is to the Redding Profile crimp die, but I know that any future calibers that need a roll crimp will be done with a Profile crimp die.

 

[warningshot]

Excellent postings.

For what it is worth;

I do a lot of PPC shooting. When I switched from a run-of-the-mill 148 hbswc to an expensive, very expensive cast bullet, my 50 yard targets really improved.

I do not see any difference in comparing the cheap bullets from the expensive bullets at 25 yards or closer.

Also; at 50 yards I see the results from other competitors whom are at or above my skill level. Some of the bad hits, maybe 2 or 3 out of 24, might be the result from a cheap bullet.

 

[ForneyRider]

thanks for the recommendation.

I loaded 3.2, 3.5, 3.7 and 4.0gr of W231 with 148gr Hornady HAP Wadcutter and accuracy was best with the softest load. Can shoot this load all day and not have any recoil issues.

 

[noylj]

50 yds for accuracy determination

Yes, we all know that the best measure of accuracy is a longer distance. However, I am not into Bullseye competition (not that I wouldn't enjoy it, just never tried) and the ranges I shot at have a 25 yds maximum. I have only shot 50 yards once, at an 8" gong. Hit it 9 out 10 times, but that range was 3 hours away from where I lived and was a private club I couldn't afford to join if I wanted to.
My point is, for those interested, that a combination of unsized brass (that has been fired in the M52 previously), a rather severe case expansion, and the use of a Redding Profile Crimp die or the Lee FCD produced the most consistently small groups that I found looking at many reloading variables.
The only reason I would worry about velocity is to avoid having the skirt and the rest of the bullet separate. Other than that, I don't care about velocity. Using velocity from reloading manuals (that may have no direct bearing on my M52s), I would say that I get best accuracy at 675-725 fps, so I might target 700 fps for a new powder. The problem is, that is below the starting loads in most reloading manuals.
I have tried cast bullets and they were the worst in my guns. I imagine that if they were about 0.360" and cast well, they could be quite competitive (that does seem to be the secret to the Remingtons—it certainly is not their careful packing). One of my points was that the manufacturer of the cheapest commercially available bullet seems to know what it takes for accuracy and gives me everything I could ask for at a low price. I just wish that Remington made comparable .32 L-HBWC.