Reliable guns/calibers?

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BrokenArrow

New member
So how do you/they figure it? What does MRBF/MRBS really mean? How much is too much?

1 in 450 (M1911A1 reference score for the M9 trials; not the perfect score of 70 yrs earlier)? 1 in 500 (Austrian Army)? 1 in 1000 (the SIG P226's score in the first M9 T&E)? 1 in 2000 (the Beretta 92's score and the FBI std for the SWAT 45s, std for the M11 trials)? 1 in 30,000 (Berettas latest score in govt tests)?

DEA fired over 10,000 rounds through each of 3 USP40 compacts w a MRBS score of over 10,000. Does that mean a total of 3 stoppages, or each gun stopped once, or...?

The FBI fired 20,000 each through 6 Glocks w no malfunctions that counted; wonder how many, if any, they had they didn't count? I know 2 of em (33%!) broke trigger bars under 20,000 rounds; good thing they only scored em to 10,000 eh? ;)

IIRC, the SAWT 45s were fired for 20,000 in 4 guns, 80,000 total w 7 or 8 jams...

Have seen the Ohio State Patrol (OSP) T&E of 40/45s written up in several places. 228,000 rounds fired, 12,000 through each of 19 guns from 6 manufacturers. 10 shooters fired 600 each (6000), then 2 guns were fired 3000 each (6000). They had _hundreds_ of malfunctions! Seems like a good reason to consider wheelguns again? The jams:

P226 4
P229 5
USP40F 14
G22 13 (see FBI test above?)
USP45F 29
8040D 11
G21 45
SW4046 25
SW SIGMA 23

G30 DNF
USP40c DNF (see DEA test above?)
USP45c DNF
P220 DNF
P94 DNF

DNF means "did not finish" the test; too many problems. Maybe the problem was the troopers, not the guns? The editors? Have seen several articles about this and the numbers do not match...;)

The ya have the INS/Border Patrol (BP) that rated the Beretta 40 Brigadier 3-5 times as reliable as the P229/G22...

Then ya have a Texas DPS class that shoots 3000 rounds each through 100 P226s in 357SIG w no jams...

The 9/357 seem to edge the 40/45? Or maybe not...

Might as well flip coins? Where's my GP100... ;)
 
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D

dsk

New member
Where did you get 1 in 450 for the M9 trials? I thought it was 1 in 2000. If a firearm jammed once every 450 rounds I flat out wouldn't trust it.
 
A

Ala Dan

Member in memoriam
What?

A Sig P220 that "did not finish the test"? Dang, the damn
shooter must have got tired?:eek: :( :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
R

Redlg155

New member
A key factor omitted....Type of ammo used.

There are many more manufacturers to choose from that produce service calibers for the 9mm, .40 and .45 Auto. There aren't as many to choose from for .357 Sig.

Did the testers use premium ammo..or lowest bid contract ammo?

Was the shooter base from an assortment of Officers, male, female, small framed, large framed, experienced and rookies?

Have a test incorporating all of the above shooters and you will see malfunctions in any weapon system chosen.

Good Shooting
Red
 
C

cheygriz

New member
I would trust my life to any Sig, ecept possibly the P228, any full size Beretta, Walther or Glock. I can't speak to the HK guns due to lack of personal experience.

If it is MY gun, if I maintain it, and if I select the ammo for it!!!!


Qualitys semi-autos are just as reliable as revolvers. Parts break in revolvers. Yes, even in Ruger and *&* revolvers. Dirt gets under extractor stars, ejector rods work loose etc.

Any quality handgun, semi-auto or revolver is trustworthy as long as it's kept clean, maintained and inspected regularly.

Revolvers however are much more difficult to learn to shoot defensively. how many of you practive DOUBLE ACTI0N ONLY, EVERY SINGLE ROUND, with your revolver? If you carry a revolver for duty/defense, you should!

These so-called "torture tests" provide interesting reading, but IMHO, little else. Any handgun can be made to malfunction if it's fired enough times without cleaning, inspection or maintenance.

Claen your gun every time you shoot it, inspect it regularly, replace worn parts, and weakened springs BEFORE they break, and only carry top quality factory loaded, name brand duty ammunition and you will not have a problem when the SHTF.
 
B

blades67

New member
Using those tests to decide which gun you will get is like trusting Gun Test magazine to be unbiased. Pure foolishness.
 
A

Ala Dan

Member in memoriam
Att: chevygriz-

Why not a Sig P228? If you trust your life to any Sig, the
P228 must be included. Using the right 9m/m ammo,
it is a rock solid foe against any threat.:D :cool: :)

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
B

BrokenArrow

New member
There were several M9 trials before one stuck and a contract was executed (and even that was challenged). The M1911A1s tested as a reference did 1 in 450 (and were about 40 yrs old at the time; judging by the M1911A1s we were issued, seems about right too).

The Beretta M9 at 1 in 2000 was the new reference for the M10/M11 trials. The SIG P228/M11 did about 1 in 15,000 BTW. The P228 is a very fine gun, and was the pick of most of the the feds (USSS/FBI/DEA/BATF/DSS/IRS) for a time. USSS and FAM seem to like the P229 in 357 now...

Std for the SOCOM pistol was 1 in 2000, the HKs ranged from a min of 1 in 6000 to a max of 1 in 15,000.

Yep, pick a gun ya like, ya can find a test where it did "best". Pick a gun ya don't like (even the same gun) and ya can find a test where it wasn't. ;)
 
A

Ala Dan

Member in memoriam
Hey chevygriz-

I own a West German manufactuered and assembled Sig P228
from 1990; imported back when Sig's were imported into the
town of Herndon, Va. It's well made, extremely reliable, and
highly accurate; quite often out dueling most P226's. I will
put it up against any 9m/m design, other than Sig's
famous P210.

FWIW, I can't address the quality of the SigArms production
P228's as I have never inspected one. I would imagne they
are as good as those produced in Germany; formerly West
Germany. I know that the West German Sig's are highly
sought after by collector's. I also have a 1995 production
West German P220 in .45 ACP; and as you can probably
tell, it's my favorite toting iron.:D :cool: :) Shoot straight
and have fun- and always be safe.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
H

Hal

New member
What does MRBF/MRBS really mean?
Click to expand...
mean rounds between failure
mean rounds between stoppage

as opposed to nice rounds maybe? ;)

Seriously though. When the term "mean" is used instead of average somtimes it's a projection of what to expect, and not actual performance. This is especially true in the computer parts arena. Data sheets often list hard drives as haveing a mean time between failure of 150,000 hours or more. No way, no how did anyone really test those drives for 17 years to determine that.
 
J

justinr1

New member
I read that when Sig was designing the 220 in all stainless, their goal was 70,000 rounds for the life of the weapon. It didn't make it and it went back to the drawing board. Or so I've read (here in TFL). You've got to love that kind of attitude!

justinr1
 
D

David Scott

New member
An interesting quote from The Manual Of Standard Testing Procedures -- Government Contracts & Purchasing Guide" by Maj Gen. H. T. Wallis, (Ret):

In testing of any mechanical device, proper lubrication and maintenance is a paramount consideration. It is incumbent upon the primary testing oficer to ensure that the results reflect the oiling of key personnel's palms, greasing of the proper skids, and maintenance of elected and appointed officials in the style to which they have become accustomed. Test results so obtained may appear at first glance to be skewed, so it is the primary testing officer's responsibility to accompany such results with a thorough explanation of the procedure, following the guidlelines set forth in the Interdepartmental Guide to Obfuscational Rhetoric and Exposition. In this way, the government informs the press, and the press informs the public, that the tests have proceeded according to plan.
Click to expand...
 
B

BrokenArrow

New member
There is that too. If we had needed GLCM (ground launched cruise missile) bases in Switzerland as much as we wanted them in Italy, SIG might have won and kept the M9 contract? ;)

I read yrs ago when the Texas DPS was considering the switch from 357 Mag to autos, the contract specified a service life of 40K on the slide/frame, 20K on the bbl. SIG got the contract w the P220/45ACP, then 5 yrs later got it again w the P226/357SIG when the 45 wasn't doing the job as well as the 357 Magnum had... So, either thay last that long, or SIG agreed to replace them if they did not, or they reduced the limit, much as the FBI did (went from 40K in late 80s for the 10mm to testing 40 S&Ws to 20K, only scoring them to 10K)... :D
 
J

jar

New member
I still think that the best all around caliber out there is the 45acp and the best handgun to use that is the ...

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followed closely by the...

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You want reliability, get something rated in MDBF (mean decades between failures) :D :)
 
C

C.R.Sam

New member
"...If it is MY gun, if I maintain it, and if I select the ammo for it!!!! "...CheyGriz.

A thinking man.

Sam
 
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