Reliability and Excuses...

[IM_Lugger]

Warning: this post may contain traces of rant

Every so often I read people say my ___ has never had a malfunction that wasn’t my fault. And say things like “ the gun just hasn’t been broken in yet” or “it just doesn’t like that ammo” or “my friend was shooting it and he must’ve limpwristed it” or “the gun was dirty; I didn’t clean it for 200 rounds” or “I didn’t lube it enough”.

IMO all those things are just EXCUSES!. Unless you use glue instead of gun oil or clean the gun once a year (while shooting it every week) it’s not your fault! Reliable gun will still be reliable no matter how you hold it, how much grease you use, what ammo you use or if it has 50 rounds or 500 thu it. I think too many people just don’t want to admit to themselves that that there are better guns out there or worst that they've made a bad choice.


When a gun jams it’s like it's cheating on me, so after a few times I just can’t trust it and have no use fir it…

I’m I alone on this one, or anyone does anyone else thinks the same?


Ps: I used to have a gun that wasn’t reliable. Reloads that would work 100% in another gun would jam 2-3 times a box. Sometimes brass would eject to the left, or just land on my head. Last 250 rounds were trouble free, but I just didn’t trust that gun and sold it. I will admit there was only 1 FTE in about 400 rounds with factory ammo, but I didn’t feel like feeding like having one 'factory ammo only' gun when another gun I have will eat any ammo as long as there’s enough powder in the case.

 

[spyderdude]

Every gun maker will have "lemons", but also poor maintanence will lead to malfunctions. Guns are mechanical tools that require care. You can't expect a gun to last forever, parts will break and will need replacing. There are certain guns who can go through countless rounds and still able to fire, but every gun has its day, even if the original owner doesn't have the gun anymore. As for having no use for a gun after a few malfunctions, parts can be replaced, and there are ways to get guns working right. That's why its a good idea to have more than one gun

 

[JohnKSa]

Reliable gun will still be reliable no matter how you hold it, how much grease you use, what ammo you use...

No.

While it's true that some guns are far more resistant to jamming due to a bad grip, nearly any semi-auto can be induced to jam if there is no resistance to the grip frame moving during recoil.

Bad ammo can jam any gun--this one's not even debatable. One of my guns was jammed by some oversized factory ammo. If it won't chamber it won't shoot and the fact that the factory goofed on the dimensions is no reflection on the gun's reliability.

And yes, you can dork up a gun by improperly lubing it. Nearly any gun can be reduced to unreliability by enough gunk in the firing pin channel. Ran into a gun at a rental range that was not lubed properly. It was jamming occasionally and the slide was very hard to operate. A drop of oil in the right spot and it was running like a champ.

On the other hand, I have a good number of semi-autos that have never jammed. Not ever for any reason under any condition or circumstances during the time I've owned them. But then again I maintain them properly, feed them only high-quality ammunition, etc...

If a gun jams for no reason (properly maintained, no parts wear or breakage, good ammunition, proper hold) then it goes on probation. Until I can figure out why it's jamming or can get a good long run of perfect reliability, it's just a range gun--it does no self-defense duty.

I think too many people just don’t want to admit to themselves that that there are better guns out there or worst that they've made a bad choice.

Yes, I think that's often true. But it's also true that sometimes a jam can be reasonably and objectively explained in a way that doesn't impugn the firearm. The oversized ammunition I mentioned earlier is an obvious case. Another case I saw was an improperly attached scope mount. It was squeezing the frame tight enough that the slide was binding. Clearly not a problem with the firearm. Once the offending aftermarket part was removed the gun functioned perfectly.

 

[gb_in_ga]

...but I didn’t feel like feeding like having one 'factory ammo only' gun when another gun I have will eat any ammo as long as there’s enough powder in the case.

Seems to me like you just refuted your own argument. You put a condition on it when you allowed for "as long as there's enough powder in the case". Meaning, that gun is reliable as long as it is fed the "correct" reloads or factory ammo. Well, it sounds to me like you are still making allowances for ammo quality, which you had just previously claimed was just another excuse. What you say is that said gun won't correctly operate with light loads -- you are making an excuse for it.

Some guns just are picky about what they are fed. Feed them what they want, and they are happy. Some aren't picky and will eat any ammo within broad specs and be happy. That isn't to say that the gun in the former case is useless, or that it can't be relied upon.

You also fail to take into account that sometimes chronic feeding failure is something that is correctable with a bit of smithing work. I had one gun that had some pretty bad FTF(eed) tendencies, but was under warranty. Rather than junking it or trading it to some unknowing, unsuspecting soul, I sent it in for service. It came back working just fine, and is now my primary carry.

 

[oldcars]

Guilty.......If a gun gives me problems, I get a bad taste in my mouth from it, and don't trust it. Usually they don't stick around long after that. I also have a bad habbit of being prejudice against guns for the wrong reason. I had a Taurus pt945(I think?) anyway, it was a lemon. That was about 8 years ago, and I havn't even considered buying a Taurus since. I just bought my first 1911 style gun a few months ago, Colt series 80 commander. It was a lemon, traded it off and I probably wont but another 1911 for a while. Silly? absolutely!!! I know there are millions of fine 1911's in the world, and I'm sure that Taurus builds lots of good guns, but i'm a little gunshy. ha.... haha...gunshy...........ah well.

 

[IM_Lugger]

Bad ammo can jam any gun--this one's not even debatable.

When I said no matter what ammo you use I meant any factory ammo or reloads within the specs. Of course you can’t expect a gun to cycle on primers only. That’s just common sense. I guess I should’ve been more specific.

Seems to me like you just refuted your own argument. You put a condition on it when you allowed for "as long as there's enough powder in the case". Meaning, that gun is reliable as long as it is fed the "correct" reloads or factory ammo. Well, it sounds to me like you are still making allowances for ammo quality, which you had just previously claimed was just another excuse. What you say is that said gun won't correctly operate with light loads -- you are making an excuse for it

Same as above ^... When I said ‘as long as there’s enough powder in the case’ I meant any load with any powder with any bullet type and OAL will work, again as long as it’s with in the specs for that calibre.

While it's true that some guns are far more resistant to jamming due to a bad grip, nearly any semi-auto can be induced to jam if there is no resistance to the grip frame moving during recoil

If you hold the gun firmly enough not to drop it or come close to it, it should work…


Also I realise that parts brake or wear out and eventually need to be replaced, I was talking about guns with parts in good working order.

 

[Officer's Match]

I agree IM, in fact, I won't keep any tool or toy that isn't reliable.

 

[JohnKSa]

Ok, IM, here's a real scenario for you.

Let's say you own a pistol that has had a couple of thousand rounds through it. It has been 100% reliable with the exception that during one shooting session it had two failures to extract out of a single box of WWB 9mm ammo. The extractor looked clean and there was no evidence of a wear or parts problem. You couldn't look at the two empty cases because this was during a match and you didn't stop to recover them.

Is that gun cheating on you?

Here's another real scenario.

You buy a polymer-framed gun and take it directly to the range without removing the storage lube. You notice that the magazines are extremely difficult to load and once or twice you notice that the followers get into a funny bind. During that shooting session you let another shooter (who has very poor hand strength due to a physical problem) try it and while that shooter is using it there are two stovepipes with Blazer aluminum case ammunition. There are no malfunctions when you are shooting.

Both you and the other shooter (with weak hands) have since shot the pistol on several occasions with no more jams using all different types of ammunition (including more Blazer aluminum). The magazines are now much easier to load and you've never noticed the follower binding problem again after the first couple of times you loaded the magazine.

Is that pistol a cheater?

 

[chris in va]

No gun can be 100%.

But I understand your line of thought. I have a CZ 75 that used to be my carry gun. After it started jamming repeatedly on range ammo, I decided to pick up a P220 which has been literally flawless.

A couple jams here and there with range ammo doesn't bother me. But several out of a 100rd box (even various brands) gives me pause. I'm too cheap to put 200 rounds of defensive ammo through a gun to find out.

Oh and you CAN make a reliable gun jam. Not hard at all.

 

[IM_Lugger]

JohnKSa

Scenario 1
I would be disappointed, and try to determine what the problem was by shooting more of the same ammo.

Scenario 2
If it was obvious that another shooter was having problems holding the gun I’d take that to the account. Of course I’d test the gun for hold sensitivity myself. I wouldn’t get rid of it unless the pistol would consistently jam with what I consider firm enough grip (about half way between regular grip and dropping the gun)

BTW I always clean a new gun before I take it to the range. If I had magazine problems I find out if it’s a problem with a specific magazine or every mag.


I didn’t mean that I wouldn’t investigate the problem, in fact with the gun I mentioned in the original post, I spend 1500 round trying to determine what the problem was.

 

[RsqVet]

IM ---

I agree with you in general however I do belive that it is a matter of degrees and that many problems can be explianed or understood.

Where I agree with you... all to many people proclaim their love of Gun A which is dead on reliable... except for the 3oo round break in, the time I tried a diffirent mag, the time we used brand x ammo, the time we used grease insted of oil... you get the picture...

This reaks of BS and you called it apropriately in your comments.

I will not buy guns with a "break in period" for this reason, to me it's just the maker starting the BS / excuse parade before you have even fired the gun.


At the same time any machine can malfunction or be made to malfunction. And any machine will have performance parameters... some guns can be run with no lube others will not... etc... a gun honestly is not at fault if it's run outside of these paramters, you can argue as to what the parameters should be but that is more something one should consider before a purchase.

A good example is the Benelli inertia system auto loaders. They are very good, reliable guns. Hang too much tacti-cool stuff on them and they will have reliability issues because the weight of the weapon matters to the funstion of the system. This is why the M4 is a gas gun.

The more critical a machine's engineering becomes the easier it is to screw things up through operator error... we as consumers keep demanding smaller, lighter, more powerful guns... this does to some degree make it easier to mess them up. I honestly can not get my 1911's to malfunction by "limp wristing" if I try, I can however get some of the smaller automatics to easily do this, but them I can not stuff a 1911 in the front pocket of jeans.

There are no free lunches in life and as you maximize other factors such as size, weight, accuracy, and power something has to give and that may be lattitude in terms of grip, ammo, lube whatever. Look at modern auto engines, they are more efficint, longer wearing etc. and so forth, at the same time you can wreck them a whole lot easier any number of ways.

Another example, in cold weather too thick of a grease will affect fuction in my 1911's, due to the long rail / slide bearing area and tight tolerances, I ahve not had this problem with, say my glock that has smaller areas of contact.

 

[P-990]

Just my $.02

But expecting anything mass-produced, with minimal-hand-fitting, and reliant on small "explosions" to work 100% every time, no matter what, no excuses, whatever, is kind of silly IMO.

My Glock has failed. Come to think of it, I've NEVER had a semi-auto handgun that has run 100% of the time for every shooter with every ammo type! Sometimes the shooters have weak grips, sometimes reloads aren't up to the exact power level required, even sometimes factory ammo comes through and isn't quite right. I've had FTE(xtract) on Remington UMC ball ammo and WWB ball ammo, this in 9mm, with the Glock. I don't not trust the pistol, but I realize Mr. Murphy is riding on my firearms (and car, and bicycle, etc.) every where I go.

And I think .22LRs are even worse than the centerfires. Though this I will blame almost 100% on the poor QC of cheap bulk-buy ammo.

Come to think of it, my most reliable firearm, period, no questions asked, is an AR-15!! Dirty, cold, hot, clean, whatever. It works. Even my revolvers and Marlin leverguns can be tied up from time to time. If you think clearing a stovepipe is a pain, try screwing the ejector rod back in on a S&W, with the cylinder latched in place.

 

[Sarge]

As it relates to 1911s...

The 500-1000 round break-in story is a very recent development- and one propagated by manufacturers.

I see guys having problem after problem with brand-spanking new 1911s, and being told by those manufacturers that the need to run 500 rounds of Brand X ball through them before they send the gun back. This is a dodge to avoid or postpone a service issue.

I'd also say that 85% of those problems are directly attributable to poor extractors, glued-in ejectors that work loose, undersized 'match' chambers that were cut with a dull reamer; and lots of other stuff that wouldn't happen if folks were building them per Kuhnhausen's manual. Shooting such a gun for another 500-1000 rounds is a frustrating waste of time and ammunition.

Folks in large numbers have been sold the 'break-in' line, and bought it. Folks in even greater numbers have repeated it. They fail to understand that the 1911 design is no more complicated than a Briggs & Stratton engine. You take good-quality parts, assemble them correctly, and check things as you go. The finished product works. If you've got gas and spark in the proper amounts and in the right places, at the right times- it just can't help but run.

Basic 1911s are the same way. Hard-fit match 1911s are another story, but not entirely. Builders of match 1911s do most of the finishing touches by careful fitting and hand-cycling the heavily-oiled parts until they run smoothly. The first 150 rounds of ball should finish the process. Baer’s guns have made their reputation for accuracy on the superb fitting of first-rate components.

I find it interesting that for the first 85 years of the 1911’s life, we never heard of this critical '500 round break in'. This includes the National Match and Gold Cup Colts, and a host of similar guns built by AMU smiths and those who followed in their footsteps. Honest, ‘2” at 50 yards’ target 1911s. Match shooters weren’t buying these ‘softball’ guns and shooting a case of ‘hardball’ through them before taking them on the circuits. They were expected to work and shoot like a house afire when new; if they didn’t, they went back to the bench for correction.

The government would never have adopted the design, if there were any truth to the notion that you can expect malfunctions for the first 500 rounds.

If you build them right and feed them in-spec ammo- they will run.

 

[JohnKSa]

IM,

For what it's worth, if asked about the reliability of the two guns in question, I always tell the stories just like I posted them here.

I'm sufficiently confident that the former was an ammunition issue, particularly since I've seen other similar problems with that ammo posted on this board. This gun still does occasional self-defense duty--although not with WWB, of course.

The latter seems to have been a "break-in" (for lack of a better term) issue with the magazines, perhaps exacerbated by a very loose grip by the shooter. The magazines clearly loosened up after the first range trip and the odd follower binding issue has never repeated. Nevertheless, this gun doesn't do self-defense duty. Maybe after some more ammunition has gone downrange without issue.

 

[IM_Lugger]

I definitely believe in second chances; when I said “after a few times I just can’t trust it and have no use fir it…” I meant continuous problems with all sorts of (correctly loaded) ammo.

For example I have a new P226ST that had two FTE’s in 400 rounds. I was hoping will be 100& like my 92FS... so am I I going to sell it? No, at least not right now. Will shoot another 1000 rounds or so, and see what happens. If I’ll get a jam every 100-150 rounds it will be too frustrating and I’d likely sell the gun. But if all goes well the two malf’s will be 'forgotten'.

Reliability of one of MANY factors that influence what I buy and what I keep; among other things there’s accuracy, durability, looks, ergonomics, trigger pull… So if I get a gun that is less than 100% but still far from a jam every box I might keep it if has many other things going for it, BUT I wouldn’t vote for it in the next 'What's the most reliable 9mm/40 etc...' thread

 

[jhgreasemonkey]

I agree that if the gun gives me any problems I dont trust it and end up getting rid of it. For break in periods I think its kind of crazy to have a gun that you cant trust to work properly because it hasnt been fully broken in. I want my guns to work flawlesly after the first trip to the range for sight in.

 

[USMCG_HMX1]

Every so often I read people say my ___ has never had a malfunction that wasn’t my fault. And say things like “ the gun just hasn’t been broken in yet” or “it just doesn’t like that ammo” or “my friend was shooting it and he must’ve limpwristed it” or “the gun was dirty; I didn’t clean it for 200 rounds” or “I didn’t lube it enough”.

I know where you're going with this, but we all know there is such a thing as "bad ammo", and there is such a thing as "guns can be picky when it comes to ammo" which is usually due to the pistol itself. The easiest fix is changing mags on a weapon, both semi-auto pistols and their long barrelled cousins.

My Norinco SKS is one such weapon. I've put several thousand rounds through her and she loves ComBloc surplus brass cases, laquered steel cases, copper coated steel and even powder coated. Put a box of Winchester White Box in a mag and she'll choke on it every time. I get stove pipes, FTF, FTE, and double feeds. As soon as I switch back to ComBloc or any others I've mentioned ... and boom, she's as reliable as ever. I just ran over 500 rounds through her the weekend before last, and one of my buddies I went shooting with was going to bring some WWB with him. I had to tell him to keep it at home because my SKS just doesn't like it. So he tried to pull a "I'm Mister Know It All" on me and brought it with him, and he didn't even bother finishing to shoot off the 20 rounds he loaded in the mag. We ended up shooting the rest of the 500 rounds with zero problems.

The same thing happened to me over the winter when I got a Bushmaster AR for Christmas from my wife (yeah I've got a GREAT WIFE !!!!). The barrel index pin was warped from an over-tightened barrel nut, and at 26 clicks left I couldn't get it close to hitting paper. It got sent back and at 3 clicks left I can pop golf balls at 50 yards all day long.



Did I sell my SKS, or throw out my AR when they failed on me?

No ... I stopped and figured out what was wrong, researched my problem and what could cause it, and then looked for a solution.


If you've got 50 to 5000 rounds through a pistol (or ANY weapon) and it fails on you I can understand why you wouldn't trust it, but if you don't look for the "why is this happening" versus the "I can't believe this is happening" you might not want to buy another gun for a while.



Kris

 

[Sturmgewehre]

I do not own a firearm that has malfunctioned more than 5 times. I don't believe in "break in periods". If a gun can't work right out of the box, I don't trust the quality of manufacture. If my 2007 car stuttered and stalled during the first 500 miles, I would get rid of it too. I don't care about "breaking in" the motor or any other part. We expect highly complex machines like V-8's to work properly the moment we drive them off the lot but some folks think it's ok for a relatively simple machine like a gun to malfunction during the first 500 rounds of its life?

I don't. If it can't digest 500 rounds right out of the box without incident, I sell or trade it. I have WAY too many guns that didn't need to be "broken in" or that haven't failed in any way that wasn't ammo related to be worried about keeping one that hangs up occasionally.

I used to work at a very busy range as the RO. I would see people come and go with their guns... many would stand around talking about how great their brand X auto was and how it has never given them any trouble... and I know this is a complete fabrication on their part because I personally had seen them clear multiple malfunctions with the gun they were talking about. Why people would claim their $1000 brand X auto never failed them when obviously it had, and on multiple occasions, I never understood.

 

[Eric M.]

Here is one for you guys to ponder.
My Taurus PT 1911 has had not jammed once for me, and shoots plenty fine to use in Bullseye without accurizing.
Last week at the range, a police officer wanted to shoot it so I let him.
He was using my reloads that I have shot many rounds with. The overall length is 1.260".
Well, he attacked that gun, and did everything but use it for a pogo stick.
It probably jammed on him 8 out of twelve shots. One bullet even got turned around on him in the chamber, and was facing backwards. I'm not kidding.
He told me that my reloads were too long. We all were laughing at him.
After he left, I shot the rest of the box at 25yds and pretty much wiped out the 10 ring. NO malfunctions.
Here is a perfectly good pistol that is very reliable, but when treated badly by a shooter, DID malfunction.
Sometimes it is the shooter.
I still can't figure what he did wrong, except treat the poor PT 1911 like it was a jack hammer.

Eric

 

[Sturmgewehre]

Eric, what do you mean he misused your gun? There should be absolutely nothing even a complete novice could do by holding your gun and firing it that would cause it to feed a cartridge backwards or otherwise jam.

I have taken most of my auto's (Beretta, G17, 1911, Sig, S&W, etc) and fired them using only my thumb and index finger and everyone of them them have fired their magazines without a single malfunction. How can you hold a gun like a "jack hammer"? How could he "abuse" your gun by shooting it? Was he beating it on the table? Sticking his fingers in the ejection port? Blocking the travel of the slide? Not inserting the magazine all the way?