Relationship of burn rates loading for .30-06

[Cowboy_mo]

Okay, I have some Nosler 168 gr spitzers (the ones with the green tip) that I want to load up. Nosler shows their "best" results using IMR 4350 and some very similar results using IMR 4831. When I checked IMR's recommendations, they show 4350 as a choice and 4064 but apparently haven't tested 4831.

If I choose 4350, it means buying a new powder and adding it to my stocks which I really don't want to do So, in trying to choose I look at the IMR burn rate charts which lists IMR 4064 as #93, IMR 4350 as #113, and IMR 4831 as #121.

Given that I have 4064 in stock which is "10" faster burn rate and 4831 in stock which is "8" slower burn rate WHICH would you, as much more experienced reloaders choose to try first?

I am trying for a hunting load that will be used from50-300 yds max.

 

[Barnacle Brad]

Why not load up some of each powders you do have on hand and see what your rifle likes best?

My opinion and what my rifle likes will never give you a starting point to develope loads for your rifle.

Test what you got and good luck!

 

[Savage99]

I have let the Hodgdon ads that claim such and such powder has temperature stability influence me.

Thus while I started with Dupont powder in 1953 most of my powder today has an "H" before it's number.

I also use Alliants powder.

 

[1stmar]

Burn rate charts are not consistent, nor are they linear. You can't draw comparisons by virtue of where the three powders are in relationship to neighboring powders. 4064 is a great powder for 30-06, it will work extremely well out to 300 yards. I'm not familiar with noslers .30 bullets but generally 168gr are for target shooting not hunting.

 

[jimbob86]

Which would I......?

Since I have both laying around ..... 4064 and 4831 ....

....both. I'd try both of them. .... and then I'd buy some 4350 ..... try that, too .....

Either should work ..... the slower 4831 should give better velocities .... the 4350 should give you even faster, all else being equal .....

 

[rg1]

General 30-06 recommendations is IMR 4350 for loads up to 165/168 and IMR 4831 is better for 180 grain or heavy 30-06 bullets. IMR 4064 is a suitable powder and is often used in 30-06 loads for M1 Garands. If I were using IMR 4064 I'd load using Garand data.

 

[RC20]

I would go with the 4831 only because I use it and good results in my 175 gr bullets. I would not bother with the 4350 if you don't have it. \

I have not used IMR4064 but Hornady and Sierra both list it so its a decent performer or it would not be on their list.

Both Hornady and Sierra list a variety of shapes in the 168 and or in the next category up (175 -190 range and all are "safe" so its not real picky.

Nosler picks strange types of powders for their listing, certainly not the usual go to and proven powders. Some I have never even seen for sale. No idea what drives them. With all due caution you can use other mfg data with the same type and weight of bullet starting safely low and working up.

Check the following data before you use it and at your own risk of course.

For IMR 4831, Hornady lists a starting charge of 50.6 (couple years old book) and a maximum charge of 59.5 at a listed 2900 fps.

No need to push it past 56-57 gr for 300 yd maxim shot (my opinion) that gives you 2700 fps which is the original 30-06 load velocity.

Sierra for the same weight bullet lists it as 49.3 starting and maxim 58.8. 56 grs vies you 2800 fps according to them (their data seems optimistic though they also use a 26 inch barrel! - Hornady uses a 23.75

Hornady lists IMR 4064 as Does Sierra. Narrower use range but it should work fine assuming your particular rifle likes it.

Hornady: 41.8 minimum and 50.2 max at a reported 2800 fps

Sierra: 41.8 starting and 51.3 maxim at listed 2700

 

[Unclenick]

Cowboy mo,

I'm not sure which bullet you have. Two of the Nosler's have green tips. One is the 168 grain Ballistic Tip hunting type, #30168, which has a bright green tip. The other is the 168 grain E-tip type, #59415, which has an olive green tip. The former is conventional construction, while the latter is a copper solid and is longer and presents has a higher start pressure.

I believe the reason you don't see IMR 4831 loads for this bullet weight is both its slightly lower relative burn rate and its lower bulk density. IMR 4350 has about 4% higher bulk density and burns a little faster with the result that if you fill the case 100% (100% of the space under the 168 grain bullet; this does not include the part of the case the bullet takes up) with both powders, the 4831 load has about 100 fps less velocity. A maximum pressure compressed load of 4350 is about 103% case fill, or 3% compressed, while a maximum pressure load of 4831 is compressed 108%. That high degree of compression is harder to achieve without long drop tubes or other special gear, and many inexperienced handloaders will deform cases doing it. As a result, I think they just felt it wasn't appropriate for this bullet weight because it's not practical for most handloaders.

That said, for just 300 yards or so, you can load it down. Figure around 55 grains of IMR 4831 will fill the case. From a 24" tube it will be running in the 2700 fps ballpark. But around 49 grains of 4064 will do the same thing at lower cost, which is another reason you don't see a 4831 listing for this bullet weight commonly.

 

[Cowboy_mo]

Thanks Gentleman

For the record, these are Nosler #tip bullets which are for hunting.
Think I will give the Imr 4831 a try.

Nosler's results indicate a most accurate load at 54 gr producing 2600 fps followed by 56 gr @ 2710 fps and 58 gr as a max load producing 2832 fps all from a 24" barrel which my TC Venture happens to have

Hopefully I can load some up tomorrow, test them, and hopefully begin using them to finish out doe season.

 

[RC20]

And I stand with egg on my face.

I was someplace else in a 308 bullet but not for 30-06 and opened up to the right page this morning.

I am also a bit confused on bullets as my manual shows a 165 green tip (not numbers) but no 168 green tip (looking at their site they added one in 168, seems a bit odd with a 165 that close)


Nosler does have a wide range of powders listed for their various 165/168 gr bullets.

4831 stand up as a good choice for the powder the OP has available.
My Nosler book says 56 gr is 99% case fill and as I noted (as does Unclick) in the previous, for 300 yard max shot its more than fine. He goes with 55.

Also we are dealing with 5 different bullets and shapes for those same chargers, I expect its conservative which is fine.

Keep in mind for hunting some have gotten carried away with the accuracy thing. Hunting is not bench rest and the variation we see in any hunting shot vs a carefully taken target shot are.

I was always happy with 1.5 to 2 inch group sighting in at 100 yds, that was more than close enough for hunting where I probably averaged 4 or 6 inches of where I was aiming for (hard to tell when splitting hairs, grin)

 

[jmr40]

Most of the time load data for 165 and 168 gr bullets is the same. The 168's generally have a slightly more aerodynamic shape and hold up somewhat better at long range. Some 168 gr bullets are meant for target shooting, not hunting, so be careful. Nosler's 165 and 168 gr Ballistic Tips (green tips) are both hunting bullets.

4064 is a good 30-06 powder. If that is what you have it will do a good job. I think either H4350 or IMR 4350 is a better powder for 30-06 at that bullet weight.

 

[Jimro]

For 168s to 175s I will reach to IMR4064 before any other powder in 308 and 30-06.

Speed is fine, but accuracy is final, and I've had such a good run with 4064 I don't feel the need to use anything else just yet. I haven't tried any of the new "reformulated" powder, so my attitude may change in the future.

Jimro

 

[Bart B.]

Quickload's burn rate indices for most powders are listed in post #9 in this related thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545581

 

[T. O'Heir]

Doesn't really make any difference to a hunting rifle. However, what cartridge you're loading does. If it's either .308 or .30-06, IMR4064 is your friend.

 

[Geezerbiker]

In my experience, it's hard to beat 4064 for an all around powder for the '06. With that said I've also used 4831, 4350 (and a few others) for some loads over the years.

I wouldn't go back to using 4831 unless I get a longer barreled rifle. It gives some of the most impressive fireballs out of a 22" barrel I've ever seen. At first all I noticed was an orange glow in the scope after firing. One day I went shooting with a friend and he commented about the fireball so I let him shoot it once so I could see. I tried down loading the rounds and I still got the orange glow in the scope. I'd only use this if it's all I had on hand. The accuracy was OK but it just too slow for all of it to burn in a 22" barrel.

I was given half a can of 4350 and I was very impressed with the results with it. It has become my favorite powder for 180g bullets. I'll also use it with bullets as light as 165g but I consider it a heavy bullet powder. I've switched to RE15 for .308 Win and .30-06 loads for 150g and lighter bullets.

My Elcheapo model 670 Winchester rifle has never seemed to show a preference to powers for accuracy so I not been forced to pic just one powder for it. When I was younger I'd work up the hottest loads I could within published data and all would shoot great. That much recoil isn't fun anymore and I've been shooting reduced loads out of it rather than not shoot it anymore...

Tony

 

[jimbob86]

I wouldn't go back to using 4831 unless I get a longer barreled rifle. It gives some of the most impressive fireballs out of a 22" barrel I've ever seen.

IMR7828 or H1000 will light up your life, if fireballs are your thing .....