Rejected for a FOID...please help!

[defjon]

Recently, I applied for a FOID- That's a Firearms Identification card. In the state of IL, you cannot purchase any ammunition or firearms of any kind without one.

I applied before the age of 21, so I needed a cosigner. My mom GLADLY cosigned for me. I am now 21, my birthday in mid-february.

At any rate, I got my foid application back Feb 3rd, and was suprised to find it having been rejected. I was shocked, because I have a SPOTLESS criminal record, and am an all around law abiding American citizen! Raised in the military, no arrests, one drinking ticket awhile ago that was wiped off my record in exchange for prompt payment of fines, as well as above and beyond community service work (I didn't mind it at all).

But then I saw a clause.

430 ILCS 65/8(e). Any individual who has been a patient in a mental facility in the past five years is automatically denied a FOID card. My application was denied.

Then I remembered. When I had just turned 17, in fact about two weeks after, I had bronchitis. At the time, I was just a teenager. I was going to a couselor because of normal teenage issues these days- not fitting in, etc. Nothing even very major! It just helped me to talk to someone. I only went for a few months. At any rate, my mom was freaked out that I was going to a couselor. She gave me some cold medicine to take for my chest congestion. My chest really hurt, so awhile later, I took some more...just drinking some out of the bottle.

It wasn't THAT much, but more than the recommended dosage. And it made me a little tipsy. She later found me in that condition, and without any thought, took me right to the hospital to get tested for liver damage or anything like that.

I was a MINOR, with no say in the matter, and the hospital automatically interpreted it at as a suicide attempt! It was none such thing!

I was admitted, wrongfully, and they FINALLY let me talk to my dad. I had been caught up in the institutional system! When I got to talk to him and my mom alone, I explained what had happened, and needless to say my dad got things done.

All in all, I spent about an hour "admitted" in a facility. I was dischaged the same day, just minus a couple hours and some dignity.

And now, it seems, any hopes of getting my FOID at present.

What should I do? I am not a "mental patient"! I was one for an hour, but I received no treatment or anything! My mom even cosigned the FOID with me! What's wrong with this picture??

In 2006, it'll officially be over 5 years, so I GUESS I can re-apply...but I feel this is a miscarriage of justice! What should I do??

Thanks everyone, and please...I'm hoping for no immediate judgement about my character here. Yes, I was rejected, but I don't believe in this case the fail-safes of the system have worked to prevent a crime. When my dad was stationed overseas...for most of my life really, I always competed in junior marksmanship events! I've got several awards...I've been shooting all my life with family, and everyone I know agrees I'm one of the safer gun handlers they know. It's just a simple policy of "every gun is loaded", and you're generally safe.

Any input would be great...

Thanks again.

Respectfully,

Jon

 

[defjon]

Needless to say, not being able to get my FOID on my 21st birthday was a bummer! I'd been pretty excited about it. My to buy list was Ruger P-95 DAO, and a SW 66-2! Had 'em both picked out. They were used, but I'm friends with the guys that own the shop and I got to check 'em out. I am hoping to appeal this case, but I was wondering if anyone else had any experience with anything like this. I don't believe its fair to hold me accountable at 21, an adult, for a mistake when I was 17, a minor.

Jon-

 

[Crosshair]

I would talk to someone qualified in medical law. It seems to me you're situation qualifies as an accidental overdose. I was taking some medication one time and had the perscription refilled. Well instead of 10mg pills (some number like that), they gave me 20mg pills that I was soposed to break in half. Well, I took a whole one before I went to bed (Alway's read the instructions) and woke up the next day barely able to move. My mom took me to the hospital once we figured out what happened and the doctor checked my heart and breathing. I was then sent home and basicly told to "sleep it off and read the instructions". One side effect of the medication was severe drowsyness and by me taking a doubble dose I effectivly tranquilized myself. Nothing more happened asside from an ER bill and reading the instructions on any perscription I get.

 

[Fred Hansen]

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be
much easier to deal with."

Ayn Rand ('Atlas Shrugged' 1957)

 

[Blue Heeler]

Is there any provision in your legal system for a Judicial Review of this decision? If there is, you should apply for it. If not, do you have an ombudsman who has a general ability to review Government decisions?
Because of the likely cost of engaging a solicitor I would examine the statutory review processes first. You may then be in a better position to decide whether it is worth pursuing.

 

[gb_in_ga]

JMNSHO -- You are now 21, right? If I were you, I'd be seriously thinking of getting my little tail out of Ill. I've heard enough horror stories about that place from my sister and brother-in-law, who live in Carbondale. Go someplace (like here, in Ga) that is reasonably gun friendly. FLEE!

 

[jburtonpdx]

Defjon
I would seriously consider what Blue Heeler suggested. Challenge the process and be patient. As you pointed out in 2006 you can reapply so there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Also consider this a welcome to the adult world. People tend to use any excuse they can find to further there political agenda. Some pencil pusher that is an anti sees that you spent 1hour in a mental inst. looks at the law and says that is it. They dont have to consider the spirit or anything else, they get to just say that is the way it is....

Remember this incident every time you vote and consider who you are voting for. I would also suggest you contact your state legislative rep and politely explain what has happened and how that will influence you at the polls next time.

 

[N.H. Yankee]

I hate the stigma that is attached to people who are SMART enough to realize they need help, its the ones who dont get help that are the dangerous ones! It all depends upon the condition, depression, alot of people have it that need treatment and dont get it, true dementsia is a different story. I was an officer in the Air Force and sadly the military still has the viewpoint of anyone seeking help is damaged goods. I saw more than one person commit suicide because they couldnt cope and were afraid of ruining thier life by getting help, kind of an irony, afraid of ruining your life so you kill yourself, very sad. Then there were the ones who were more dangerous than an ICBM ready to launch who didnt think they had a problem in the world. I would see if you could appeal this in writing and also see about getting your medical records and seeing what is really written on them. I always get copies of my records and it would shock people to see what is erroneously in thier records as far as what you told the Dr. and what he thought was wrong or what he thought you described, also one doctors diagnosis of depression isnt always anothers doctors diagnosis. have a medical board review yopur case and see if you can get your records changed, but dont tell them its to get a license to carry. A last resort is go to the Gov. office only after you have your records and bring your petition in writing and see if that gets a waiver. A friend of mine had a felony on his record (counterfeit horserace tickets) and he helped a guy with a broken down boat on the water one day about 15years ago and it was the head of the State Police. He told him about his 30yr old conviction and asked if he could help, well guess what, he is now a legal gun carrying citizen. You never know unless you try and never give up. Also in some states mentally unstable means different types of physcriatric conditions and depression isnt considered unstable. If you never had depression you really need to fight this to the end, even if one has had depression, today it is a very common ailment. I wish I had a dollar everytime I was told to give up, you cant fight city hall, and I won. DO NOT THROW IN THE TOWEL!!!! Please keep us updated, and best of luck.

 

[kardinal]

Help in your situation

Defjon

Let me give you some background, I am a mental health counselor. I understand your situation and it sucks. I would suggest that you request your records from every single person that interacted with you during this time, and then proceed to challenge the decision made through whatever process there is. If you can find the treating MD or your old counselor, ask if they will write a letter that you could use during the process. My experience has been that counselors will write a letter to help you out.

Now really look into this next part. It may have been a HIPPA violation for whomever at the state level to have found your records containing mental health information. I cant be for sure about this, I dont know what you signed to get the FOID card, but if you didnt sign something specifically allowing them to retrieve your records from treating professionals then they violated your HIPPA rights. To clarify your HIPPA rights, our the medical privacy rights stating that the only people with the right to see your records are you, and the treating professional. The insurance carrier has a limited right to review this when you are recieving treatment. They can review things such as diagnosis, and the treatment plan, but not the notes or your statements. Generally speaking there are only three ways that a counselor will disclose information about your case. 1. You are about to harm yourself or others. 2. A court ordered release of records 3. You yourself says it is ok to release the records. Again I am not sure what you have to sign when you apply for you FOID card, it is great in living in Texas.

I hope this information is helpful to you. Sorry that you werent able to recieve your card on the 21st birthday. I second the idea that others have posted move out of Ill. granted that is way easier said then done. Take care and good luck.

-j

ps. If you need more information about the legalities or HIPPA or retireiving your records from professionals, feel free to PM or email me.

 

[michael t]

Your of age , move. Come on down to KY and enjoy good weather nice people and gun freedom. Its not that far back if you want to visit. You can CC here and not just handguns.

 

[Don Gwinn]

The first thing you need to do before you get worked up about this is find out EXACTLY why you were denied. Did the rejection actually say that you are being denied because of that incident? Your post implies that you remembered the incident and decided that must be it, which can be dangerous when dealing with an underfunded and undermanned bureaucracy.

A couple of years ago my best friend from my misspent youth applied for a FOID card. His name is Scott Lynn Stewart. He sent off the application and waited . . . and waited . . . and waited. He waited six months before he asked me whether that was normal.

We called the State Police to find out what was up. It turns out he had been rejected, but they hadn't notified him. Now this kid actually had a perfectly clean record even according to Illinois standards--two speeding tickets, no crimes, no mental health issues, nothing. So why was he rejected?

Because the name "Scott Stewart" was flagged in the ISP's system with felony drug warrants! According to them, Scott Stewart was a violent drug dealer from Rockford. They didn't check any further than that, so they didn't notice that the application had actually made my friend out to be somewhat different than the drug dealer:

• His middle name was Lynn; the other guy had a different name.
• His Social Security number, which checked out as valid when they eventually bothered to check, was different.
• He was from Virden, not from Rockford.

What I found truly mind-blowing was that they thought a guy on the run with felony drug warrants had applied for a gun license, and what did they do about it? Nothing! No investigation, no contact, nothing at all. If we hadn't called and lit a fire under them, it would have been forgotten. Even if you accept the concept that a violent criminal will apply for a license to buy his gun legally, it appears nothing will happen to him when he does.





My point so far is that you really have no idea why they rejected you. I myself have a perfectly clean record, and I get refused the first time any dealer calls my info in for the NICS "instant check." No one can or will explain it to me. I always get the thumbs-up when they call back, so who knows what weird cross-referencing trick they're pulling the first time? Make sure you're barking up the right tree before you spend money on a lawyer or time on a letter campaign.

Now, that said, how to solve the problem you presented?

I'm just going to be up front with you--you will probably need a lawyer to get this settled. It might only take him a letter to get it done, or it might be impossible.

I would say there's no way the state is going to budge on the 5-year clause, because that's set in stone in the law. So you need to concentrate on the question of whether the record of your "hospitalization" can be expunged. I'm sure that would require some cooperation from the hospital in question, and I don't know if it exposes them to liability issues (they certify that you shouldn't have been admitted as suicidal, the record is expunged, you buy a gun and kill yourself, they're on the hook when your relatives sue them for millions?)
But there must be a way to expunge those records. You can expunge records of violent crimes if you can get the right people to sign off on it. You've waited a little long to do it, but I don't know if that means much.

Talk to a lawyer and see what he thinks he would need in terms of time and money, then decide whether it's worth it.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Illinois has had that 5-year mental health provision for quite awhile now. I doubt that HIPPA applies, but maybe. I'm pretty sure the FOID application authorizes a search of your medical records.

My main point on THR was to make sure that this incident is what disqualified him before he puts a lot of effort into fighting it. The ISP is perfectly capable of denying the permit for the wackiest of reasons or because of a simple mistake or typo. Check and find out first, then go from there.

 

[Don Gwinn]

"My signature authorizes the Illinois State Police to verify answers given with the Department of Human Services and any medical facility used for the care and treatment of mental illness."

From the FOID application, in the block of text next to the signature line.

Link to ISP website's online FOID application (Requires Adobe)



Seriously, I'd start by calling 217-782-7980 before 5:00 today and asking them why your application was denied. Have the denial notice handy and be polite. See what you come up with.

 

[Don Gwinn]

This thread might look a little weird for a bit, it's the merging of two identical threads on this topic. Bear with me, folks.

 

[defjon]

Sorry for making it unclear, but yes, it did say why I was denied.

"430 ILCS 65/8(e). Any individual who has been a patient in a mental facility in the past five years is automatically denied a FOID card."

Underneath this though, it says: "Individuals disagreeing with this decision may request a document reivew by the department."

So, I definately disagree with this decision!

For some reason, I thought that since this occured when I was a minor it wouldn't be on my permanent record which doesn't become applicable til age 18?? I don't know, maybe I'm completely making this up....but I swear I've heard that in relation to something.

By the way, thanks to everyone who has responded so far. I was somewhat nervous about posting this because of the "stigma" associated with this sort of thing, but all of you have been nothing but helpful and encouraging, and inspirational to make me NOT give up and NOT just let this go. It certainly inspires me to get more active in this politically. I am in IL, and right now, this is a divided state on the gun and CCW issue. I want to believe people still have the power to change things for the better in the system, which certainly abuses us right and left.

I am going to fight it, I want my case reviewed ( again). I will get a letter from a LCSW (licensed clinical social worker), my discharge showing I was only there an hour or two with NO treatment, and then just tell them what happened. I've written up my statement...it's long, I'm just hoping whatever crony glanced at my records, saw I was there an hour and decided to reject me takes the time to read what I have to say for myself! I could post it here and maybe anyone who has any experience with this could help me figure out what to say.

It's just sad to me...I mean, I like cops, I even wanted to be one for a really long time and I am taking some criminal justice (looking more at FBI now). But it seems like most of the IL cops I've talked to, even the cool ones, are NOT at all for private citizens gun rights. That's why I wanna buy some up before they're just outright banned here

As for moving to friendlier territory, I'd LOVE to, and plan to...but I'm in school for now, and don't have the mula to relocate. Plus I'm living with my girlfriend. We plan on moving in the next few years after graduation to either Oregon or Texas. I believe both offer CCW and don't mistreat people who want to legally purchase firearms.

There is light at the end of the tunnel! Even if I'm rejected yet again, which I don't doubt...my girlfriend turns 21 this summer, and she has a spotless record and could thus get a FOID. I win by default AND, as of Jan 1st next year, there is nothing they could possibly say to me about it...so I win in the long run.

I just wish I had cash and the means to fight this, because I'm sure lots of people end up in my position- stripped of their rights unrightfully and unable to do a lot about it because in today's America JUSTICE costs money.

-Jon

 

[progunner1957]

Sounds like a move may be in order!

Jon,

Sounds like you need the help of an attorney, one who knows medical law as someone else suggested. Sounds like the Reichmarshalls in charge of FOIDs in your state are using the bumblef--k created with your past medical situation as an excuse to dump a load of shineola on you.

If you are not tied hard and fast to living in IL, there are MANY states that have much less onerous gun laws. I live in Indiana, which is "A" rated for gun rights. I have a 4 year CCW permit that cost me about $35 to apply for and I received it in the mail within three weeks of applying.

The last firearm transaction I did went like greased lightning. I went in the gun shop, asked for the gun they were holding for me (a HANDGUN, even!), gave them my CCW, filled out my paperwork and paid my money. In and out with gun in less than 20 minutes!

If our politicians here in Indiana ever get stupid on us and pass a bunch of asinine gun laws, I will be off to Vermont or Alaska. Both these states have no permit or license system for carrying a firearm. As long as you do not have a criminal record, you just carry your gun like you carry your wallet!!! That's the way it should be in ALL 50 states!

Good luck gitting your FOID; if you still can't get it, Indiana welcomes you!

 

[novus collectus]

Even if you get your FOID (I'm assuming as to what that is) you should still get your record expunged or cleared up.
Just like Don Gwinn said earlier, when they make a mistake they keep on making it. It could resurface a few years later. I had to clear them up at ATF about my record in order to get my C&R FFL because of a court mistake 10 years ago. Took 6 months. Then I had to clear it up with my state police so I can buy more than one handgun a month. Took months. Now I have to clear it up with the FBI and NICS so I can get my shotgun back out of hock. Going on 8 months. Funny thing is that I got my FFL and state designation since I've started trying to get my shotgun back. If I'd expunged my record years ago to get rid of the court's mistake I wouldn't have these problems now or in the future. At least not until there's a suspected terrorist with a similar name as I.

 

[LHB1]

Hi Defjon.
There are some good suggestions in the posts above, especially trying to get out of Illinois, but one thing has not been mentioned yet. "Fair" is for childhood; "Legal" is for adulthood. Welcome to adulthood! If nothing else, learn this sometimes harsh and unfair lesson regardless of the outcome in this case. I really hope you can obtain your FOID card whatever that is. In Texas, we don't have such things.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

 

[Mark in California]

California

California has this same law.

You may be held for up to 3 days for obsevation (5150 hold). If you are released early there is no commitment. There is no restriction on firearms ownership.

There is only a commitment to mental facility if a judge rules that you be held beyond the three days of observation. At that point all firearms restrictions would kick in. If you were only under observation for a couple of hours, then, under our rules, you were cleared and there was not mental problems. There should not be any firearms restrictions.

I am a armed guard. To get around medical records restriction, we must fill a out a special form everytime we renew our license that allows State DOJ to check records with State mental health.

 

[Don Gwinn]

You're doing exactly right, then, except that I would still at least call a lawyer. If you get someone you can trust, he may tell you that you don't need his services, but you never know.

Also remember to be polite, persistent, polite, insistent, polite, patient, and polite. It drives bureaucrats nuts. And until you get to the very top leadership of the ISP, you're dealing with career civil servants who see what they're doing as simply their job. It doesn't do any good to get loud with them.

The harder you're twisting the knife, the more polite and inoffensive you should appear.