Reflex/Red dot accuracy expectations

[thesheepdog]

Hey guys, so I am thinking about trading/selling one of my scopes for a red dot (Aimpoint, Eotech, Meprolight, Trijicon etc).

I shoot a lot of iron sights, so my question, is how much more/less accurate would, say, a 2MOA red dot versus battle sights be?

I think the front sight on a Garand is 7 MOA, so thinking logically, the red dot (with a 2-4 MOA dot) would be more accurate, being that you have more sight picture?

I have an ACOG on one of my AR's, but I think I may swap it out for a red dot, because I have a suppressor coming soon and would rather use that setup for speed shooting, for now at least.

 

[NoSecondBest]

You can't compare MOA size between iron sights and a red dot. Also, how are you shooting now? To you the question might sound simple enough but it isn't. Iron sights are very, very accurate but they depend on the shooter, the target, and the type of iron sights. I've seen people shoot iron sights and shoot MOA groups out to 600 yds but that isn't the average shooter. Experienced red dot shooters (read good shooters) use the red dot to cover the target and iron sight shooters usually (again, the good shooters) use some type of six o'clock hold on the target (if it's a target and not a game animal, tin can, or milk jug). I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges. For me, to do any serious target work I would use iron sights. However, I use red dots a lot for some types of competition shooting and hunting. The key is the application of the sight. FYI: just as a loose statement, a red dot can be used to shoot some very good groups at ranges out to two hundred yards or so depending on the shooter, the target, and your definition of "good groups".
If you ever watched the Outdoor Games on tv the best rifle speed shooters all used scopes. I've never seen a successful speed shooter (still requiring precision shooting) use a red dot on a rifle. I've also never seen a precision shooter win a precision rifle match with a red dot. Just depends on what you're doing with it.

 

[thesheepdog]

I am a markmanship instructor with RWVA/Appleseed project, and yes you are correct; iron sight shooters use a 6 o'clock hold, so that sight picture is not interrupted.

BUT, I was focusing more on the actual MOA differences between irons and red dots, and how that would translate to accuracy differences (7 MOA front sight vs 2-4 MOA red dot).

Of course, everything depends on the shooter, but being an experienced shooter myself, that isn't a problem.

 

[NoSecondBest]

What's a 7MOA front sight? I'm not sure what you're describing. Is it the size of the bead on a post? A circle in a globe?

 

[ReaperTime]

Hi, this is my first post. I just wanted to give a little info on what im working with now. I have a Aimpoint CompM4 red dot on my Stag AR15 and I absolutely love it. I was shooting 100+ yards with my AR using everything from iron sights to nikon scopes and wasn't happy, ever.

When i seen my local swat practicing, I knew i wanted to shoot and practice like them. I got a military issued aimpoint and never looked back. its insane accurate. i put up 10 plates and shot 7 out of 10 rounds, first try, rapid fire. also, if i step back to 100 yards, i turn the red dot on a low setting making the dot smaller and easier to use.

I also just got Leupolds Reflex Sight for my AK47 but cannot report anything other than it looks bad ass. i have not shot it yet, plan to within the next couple days.

 

[jmr40]

I have a Vortex SPARC on one of my AR's. With it on the smallest dot I can shoot about the same size goups at 100 yards as I can with the irons. About 1.5-2" on average. On a good day, I've done right at 1" off a bench with either the dot, or irons.

With a scope my groups will be a little smaller at 100 yards. Around .75-1.5 on average. The scope is more useful at longer ranges, or at any range in low light.

 

[thesheepdog]

Nosecondbest,

7MOA is the width of the front sight on an M1 garand. I was using that for comparative reasons, being that a 2MOA aimpoint has a smaller aiming dot that a garand's 7 MOA front sight, I would expect anyone could be a lot more accurate with the red dot, since you have more sight picture.

Like I said, I have an ACOG and can hit MOA out to 400 yards with that.

Anyone taking their aimpoints out to 400+ yards and getting MOA +/- accuracy?

 

[NoSecondBest]

Nosecondbest,

7MOA is the width of the front sight on an M1 garand. I was using that for comparative reasons, being that a 2MOA aimpoint has a smaller aiming dot that a garand's 7 MOA front sight, I would expect anyone could be a lot more accurate with the red dot, since you have more sight picture.

Like I said, I have an ACOG and can hit MOA out to 400 yards with that.

Anyone taking their aimpoints out to 400+ yards and getting MOA +/- accuracy?

This is a case of comparing apples to oranges. Even with a 7MOA width on the Garand, you six o'clock hold the sight/target. It's very easy to center a target on any width post. A red dot is round and they are not used for six o'clock holding on a target (they're round, not flat on top like the Garand). I've shot competitivily for many, many years and I started using red dots when they first came out. I've never seen a competitor use a red dot with a six o'clock hold. In fact, I've never seen a top competitive shooter use a red dot on a rifle to compete...take that back, I did see it once. The person who did it tried it once on a rim fire at a Team Challenge shoot and didn't do very well with it. He went back to using a scope. This person went on to win the Great Outdoor Games on ESPN so he's definately a top shooter. I know him pretty well and he said he thought he'd try it but it didn't work out very well. Red dots are for fast target acquisition and speed shooting. They are not for precision shooting. This doesn't mean you can't get some degree of precision out of them but no where near what can be gotten with a good set of iron sights.

 

[thesheepdog]

I understand both the red dot and iron's use different sight pictures (6 o'clock versus center of target)

I guess I am waiting for someone who has experience with a red dot at longer distances, chimes in and gives me his/her answer on how accurately they can shoot on silhoulettes at distances of 400-500 yards.

I know irons are accurate, I am not arguing that, or anything as a matter of fact.
I just want to know other's experiences.

 

[AK103K]

I shot this at 200 yards with my M&P15 with a 4moa Aimpoint ML2. The center dot is 3" to give you an idea. The whole black is 12", and the dot pretty much covered all of it at that distance.

This was shot at 100. The black is 5", and again, the dot pretty much covered it.

I dont normally shoot at "bulls eye" type targets, and usually seem to do better without the aiming point. This was shot at 100 yards too on the same day...

 

[Palmetto-Pride]

I just bought a Aim Point PRO it has a 2MOA dot and I find that I can be as accurate with it as my irons, of course not as precise as with my ACOG, but then again Red Dots are for fast close work....IMO

 

[Hammerhead]

I put a Trijicon Reflex sight (12 moa triangle) on my 30-30 Handi rifle and was able to get 1-1/2" groups at 100 yards, the same group size as using a 4X scope.

The tip of the razor sharp triangle makes for a very fine aiming point. Here it's on the the .357 barrel.

Batteries? it don't need no stinkin' batteries. This is some top quality stuff, I've had this sight for over 12 years. The neat thing is you can adjust it with a coin or the rim of a cartridge, a nice feature in cold weather.

 

[Therealkoop]

I dont think theres much of a difference.

You can 6 o'clock hold a red dot if you want for higher precision also. I know quite a few people that zero thiers in at 100 using the apex at the top of the dot, instead of the dot itself.

Still works like normal close in, but if you want the extra precision its there.

 

[captscotty]

Am I thinking through all this correctly?...mount a scope for longer range shooting of say, what, 200+ yds? Mount a 'dot' (looking at Trijicon Reflex) for faster and closer targeting since there's no magnification?

I assume that a 'dot' is only as good as your eyeball, just as in shooting iron sights? IOW, no magic, but quicker and more accurate targeting due to lower MOA 'reticle'?

First post...have enjoyed researching through your treads. Good stuff.

 

[Mrgunsngear]

CAPT--generally speaking: yes. Red dots are quicker at close range for most people (me) and many (not all) people shoot tighter groups at distance with irons.

To the OPs quesion, I have shot 3-4'' groups at 100m (on a good day) with my 4MOA dot on my free floated AR and I'm a decent shot. I can group tighter with irons, particulary if using a 6 o'clock hold and a narrow front sight post. But, I just had PRK surgery a year ago so my eyes are as good as they've ever been...

 

[thesheepdog]

Cool. Well I am going to try both my 12.9 MOA triangle and my 2 MOA dot at distance and tactical courses and see how they do.

 

[cptmclark]

I've used a red dot for a few years on protection and hunting (slug) shotguns. I've even benchrested them qute a bit, but that really defeats the purpose of the red-dot. For group shooting I choose a black bullseye target larger than the red dot, so that I can see an even black ring around the dot. That's like shooting a ring or globe front sight. It is suprisingly accurate (I'm tempted to get into group bragging here) BUT takes time and concentration.

If you want to group less than MOA consistently, probably not for you. Not because it's not possible but because it takes so dang long. For quicker target acquisition and accurate fire suitable for defense and hunting at medium close ranges I can't beat the red dot. Irons are slower just because of needing to line up precisely three things. With the dot just put it on the target and press the trigger. Fun to use for precision but not practical in MHO.