Recoil testing device needs math help

C

choppero

New member
I have a device (fixture, sled, gizmo) that will measure recoil by pushing a sled (loaded with 50 lb weight) mounted on rails a measured distance. An older (spring loaded) version can be seen on my web site http://hudsontradingpost.com/pages/Products/Muzzle Break.htm
I decided on weight vs spring for consistancy of measurement.

How can I calculate the force required to move a distance. The weight is known (50 lb with rifle). The factory ammo specs are known in this case 338 Win Mag 200 gr Muzzle energy 3890. Distance moved without break 3 7/8 in. and with break it moves 2 9/16 in. The sled moves on Nylon (cutting board material) channels and Delrin rails. Unloaded it slides very free.

It will be great to know what kinds of energy reductions different breaks produce.
 
Z

zach_

New member
Ah, unistrut. Wonderful stuff. Is that a fish scale I see in there? Is it free recoiling on bearings? Do you have a Utube video?
 
F

FlyFish

New member
I'm not sure that you can come up with a formula that will relate distance moved vs. recoil force without somehow factoring in the friction in the system, and I wouldn't know where to begin with that. What might be possible, though, is to establish an empirical relationship between force and distance by measuring the distance moved with a few different loads, and then either graphically or mathematically relating them.

You'll need to do your own reloading and will need a chronograph, which you may already do/have. The procedure would be to, for example, set up a factory dupe load, fire it (good idea to do it several times and use the average), and then measure the distance moved (call it y), then calculate the free recoil of the load (look up "free recoil" on Wikipedia and use the "momentum short form" formula - be sure to factor in the weight of the powder charge and add the weight of your sled to that of the rifle) and call that x. Do the same thing with two or more (more is better) reduced loads and graph the results of x (in ft-lbs) vs y (in inches). If you're lucky, that relationship will form a straight line, but even if not you can still use it by drawing a smooth curve through the points.

Once you've got your line or curve, you can fire the same load with and without a muzzle brake and relate the difference in distance moved to the reduction in free recoil using your graph. Or, if you want to be more elegant, you could relate the two variables mathematically (easy if a straight line, less so if not) and calculate the difference.
 
G

griz

New member
^ Exactly what he said. You are effectively calibrating your test fixture. You'll want a range of recoil, hopefully above and below what you want to test, to get the slope of the line.
 
M

mehavey

New member
(Ignoring the static friction force req'd to break the sled into motion at start)

Work = Force X Distance
Force = Friction Resistance (once moving)

- Put the gun on the sled
- Pull the sled with the fish scale and measure the Spring Force (lbs) to keep it moving once started

RECOIL (Work) = That Spring Force (lbs) X Distance Moved (feet) when fired
 
G

g.willikers

New member
Since there's no telling the caliber and weight of the rifle a customer might be using the brake on, for advertising purposes, why not keep it simple.
Just compare the amount the apparatus moves, both with and without the brake, as a percentage improvement.
In this case, it will be a 49% reduction.
 
C

choppero

New member
Some thing I have done

The original sled recoiled by use of an old Rem 11 Barrel stub, mag tube and cut down recoil spring and was measured with a push on a rod and old Bridgeport quill scale. the results are
Muzzle%20Brake%20Recoil%20Chart.jpg


the base of the sled is secured to the bench.

I realized that the spring will have more and more counter force making the results a bit less compairable. I am sure that by maintaining a constant 50 lb weight (including rifle) it will be apples and apples. So far all rifles were 7 lb and results are:
W/O Brake W/Brake %
308 factory 180 gr 1.75 in 1.1875 in 38.3%
30/06 factory 180 gr 3. in 1.625 in 59.59%
338 factory win mag 200 gr 3.875 in 2.5625 in 40.78%

Any comments on how to improve on this sled would be helpful

Friction of nylon on delron is pretty low and should be pretty constant.
 
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M

mehavey

New member
I'm confused.

Does the current sled have a spring on it to resist the recoil ?

Or now no spring, and recoil resistance is purely a matter of sled friction ?
 
C

choppero

New member
"What about mounting the rifle in some sort of ballistic pendulum? That would solve the friction problem. "

I'm going for ease of setup. I have to discount friction as there is no way to calculate that. The sled, without weight slides very easy on its delrin plastic rails. then add 50lb and.....well I'm no engineer.
 
M

mehavey

New member
No spring. Friction and Mass
Click to expand...
Then straightforwardly from #6 above:

1. Put the gun on the sled
2. Pull the sled with the fish scale and measure the Spring Force (lbs) to keep it moving once started
3. Fire the rifle and measure the Distance moved from firing it.

RECOIL (Work) = That Spring Force (lbs) X Distance Moved (feet) when actually fired
 
S

Snyper

New member
^^ That ^^ is not Work/Energy
(even if you could record it fast)
Click to expand...
It would show the amount of recoil (in pounds) and the reduction, which is what the OP is ultimately looking for:

It will be great to know what kinds of energy reductions different breaks produce.
Click to expand...

It would be far easier to do with a scale than with weights, although the bathroom scale isn't the best choice
 
B

BumbleBug

New member
I'm no electronics guru, but I know there are electronic impact sensors (with no moving parts) that can precisely convert force into a electrical reading which could then be calibrated to express recoil. There might even be something off the shelf that can be adapted for this without much work. I'd try Googling some & make a phone call or two.

Just FWIW...

...bug :)
 
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