Rechambering from 35 Whelen to 35 Whelen Ackley

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hhunter318

New member
First things first, I know I know I know about how the advantages are marginal and this is a waste of time in some people's eyes. That's not my concern or my question. My head space issues are the main reason for me doing this. I have a CVA Optima Elite that I talked about on here some time ago that I've had misfire issues with. I discussed maybe doing a 358 Norma but with life going as usual, that didn't happen. The most cost effective fix I see is rechambering to the 35 Whelen AI. My question is can it be done by hand and will it stay concentric enough if done by hand? I've finish reamed and head spaced a short chambered barrel before but not this. Also, the neck is shorter on the AI so it wouldn't have to be set back, which isn't an option anyway. Any help? Thanks in advance.
 
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Slamfire

New member
I had misfires in my 35 Whelen:



I did three things, I installed a new extra power mainspring, I used Federal primers, and I sized the cases so there was no clearance between bolt face and case base when the round was chambered.

The mainspring in this M1903 was an old military spring, given that it could have been a century old, it was about time to replace the thing. I am a fan of replacing old mainsprings with new as I have found on a number of rifles and pistols, mainsprings lose their strength and cause ignition problems.

Federal primers are the most sensitive primers on the market, work fine in a bolt gun, I do not recommend them in semi autos as due to their sensitivity, they are the most slamfiring primer on the market. The 35 Whelen has a slight shoulder, a shoulder that probably resized during the firing pin strike, this would cushion the firing pin blow. As that shoulder does not provide a stiff cartridge stop during firing pin strike, I want the most sensitive primer I can use when reloading for this cartridge.

I am not a fan of crush fit cartridges, and yet with the 35 Whelen, I am of the opinion that a slight crush fit is desirable. At least, there should be no clearance between the cartridge base and bolt face when the round is chambered. To create that end, I used a Wilson case gage and measured the shoulder to base distance of a fired cartridge. I then set up my sizing die so the base to shoulder distance of a sized case was exactly the that distance.



Try this first before going to an improved cartridge. Then, it that does not work, get a sharper shoulder on your Whelen.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
The .35 Whelen has the same problem as the .35 Remington, too small a shoulder for good case support. That can cause misfires because the case is driven forward by the firing pin, cushioning the blow. With the AI version, the shoulder is steeper and provides marginally more support. I have never chambered for the .35 Whelen AI, but AFAIK all the AI versions can be simply rechambered from the standard version. If you have chambered other rifles by hand, I see no reason you can't do that one. Take it slow and easy.

Jim
 
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hhunter318

New member
Thanks to both of you. I'm gonna check out brownells and look for a new mainspring but I think I'm going to go ahead and rechamber also. I've already backed my sizing die off to adjust to no avail.
 
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hhunter318

New member
Old roper and mobuck, I understand and have read the whole theory about setting the barrel back for improved chambers before, but looking at the chamber and case dimensions between these particular two cartridges, I don't see the need besides its what P.O. Ackley said do, which in some cases is good enough. But in my case, that would mean removing the entire block from the bottom of the barrel where it lies in the receiver and tig welding it back on. Keep in mind I'm dealing with a single shot break action here.
 
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Slamfire

New member
Proper rechambering to AI(anything) requires setting the barrel back.
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I am not an expert on this, basically all I remember are claims that all you have to do to rechamber from a standard cartridge to an AI is to run the AI reamer through a standard chamber. So, what is wrong about this procedure?
 
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F. Guffey

New member
So, what is wrong about this procedure?
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The 35 Whelen Ackley Improved reamer will not clean up the 35 Whelen chamber.

Is that a problem? No. Unless the person cutting the chamber believes he can chamber a standard over the counter 35 Whelen round, pull the trigger then eject s fire formed case. Rational: The part of the chamber that is not cleaned up by the 35 Whelen Ackely Improved reamer is the shoulder/neck juncture.

As someone said the neck on the 35 Whelen Ackely Improved chamber is longer. The neck is longer because the shoulder/neck juncture is set back, The base body/shoulder juncture is forward if the 35 Whelen.

So? If the plan includes fire forming there is no way for the case to head space on the shoulder/neck juncture.

CVA Optima Elite
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I have rifles, many rifles, I do not have many that will allow the firing pin to drive the case, powder and bullet forward to the shoulder of the chamber. I have read on the Internet the only rifles that are talked about are the ones without killer firing pins. My firing pins are killers, my firing pins crush the primers before their little buddies, the case powder and bullet know their little buddy, the firing pin has been crushed.

If it is possible for the case to jump the extractor it is possible to test the possibility. Again, I have fired cases that were .127" shorter from the shoulder to the case head than the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

F. Guffey
 
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hhunter318

New member
F. Guffey, where are you getting that the neck on the 35 Whelen Ackley is longer? Everywhere I've looked shows the standard 35 Whelen with a .462 neck and the Ackley Improved with a .434 neck. By theory, how would that not clean up the neck shoulder junction on the standard chamber?
 
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hhunter318

New member
Okay, after talking to Dave Kiff, the neck length isn't the problem. Its the radius on the neck or shoulder that is the problem. It could be done, but probably shouldn't. He said his suggestion would be to go with the .358 x .280 AI or the 35 Brown Whelen, and I should be in good shape.
 
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F. Guffey

New member
F. Guffey, where are you getting that the neck on the 35 Whelen Ackley is longer?
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In the Big Inning there were no 35 Whelen cases, to have 35 Whelen cases it was necessary to form them. Meaning 35 Whelen cases were formed from 30/06 cases. Then comes the 'can of worms', when I form cases they get shorter. When I form 35 Whelen cases the case shortens .035" from the mouth of the case to the case head. I form wildcat cases using 30/06 cases that shorten as much as .045". So, in the Big Inning there were chambers that were cut to 35 Whelen Ackley Improved without having the barrel set back. I know that means nothing to anyone and I understands there are those that are 'so confused'.

The original chamber length did not change meaning the barrel was not set-back. I am the fan of my cases covering all of the chamber. Instead of forming cases from the 30/06 I use longer cases. BECAUSE? I am the fan of all the bullet hold I can get. I have one wildcat that has a case neck length of .217" and the barrel was not set back meaning the original chamber was not cleaned up, part of the neck is still there. SO! when I form cases for the wildcat I use longer cases to take advantage of the longer neck for more bullet hold. I know, neck tension. I do not have a tension gage that measures neck tension, I have gages that measure bullet hold in pounds. I am the fan of bullet hold.

F. Guffey
 
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F. Guffey

New member
Okay, after talking to Dave Kiff, the neck length isn't the problem. Its the radius on the neck or shoulder that is the problem. It could be done, but probably shouldn't. He said his suggestion would be to go with the .358 x .280 AI or the 35 Brown Whelen, and I should be in good shape.
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Radius? Again, there are three different Whelen Ackley Improved chambers.

CVA Optima Elite
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I inserted a quote then backed up and watched the responses. You will have one difficult task taking advise that includes a suggestion you have a choice like 'setting the barrel back'. My opinion, you should apply the 'leaver policy', leaver the way you found-er. Or run the reamer into the chamber further to clean up the shoulder/neck juncture because part of the old neck will still be there and that means you can not fire form 35 Whelen ammo the Improved version if the extractor will not hold the case to the rear.

If you were a case former we would not be having this conversation. If the rifle belong to me I would have already formed 35 Whelen cases to fit your chamber.

I would suggest you purchase Cylinder brass from R-P. Chuck Hawks has an article on options that include 35 Whelen straight wall cases that are 2.650 long, I understand that is confusing, but there is no way a person familiar with case forming can miss when the parent case is .200" longer than the case being formed. No fire forming necessary, size the case and fire, then eject once fired cases.

F. Guffey
 
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F. Guffey

New member
.280 AI or the 35 Brown Whelen, and I should be in good shape.
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280 Ackley Improved? You have a single shot without a bolt and without the possibility of a feeding problem. To explain what D. Kiff was talking about: The 35/280 Remington would clean up the chamber because the 280 Remington shoulder is ahead of the 30/06 shoulder by .051", meaning that is another example where a reloader/smith can not miss when it comes to cleaning up the old chamber. Then there are chambers by Gibbs. I would not start the project until I determined how I was going to size the cases.

F. Guffey
 
S

Slamfire

New member
So, what is wrong about this procedure?
Click to expand...

The 35 Whelen Ackley Improved reamer will not clean up the 35 Whelen chamber.

Is that a problem? No. Unless the person cutting the chamber believes he can chamber a standard over the counter 35 Whelen round, pull the trigger then eject s fire formed case. Rational: The part of the chamber that is not cleaned up by the 35 Whelen Ackely Improved reamer is the shoulder/neck juncture.

As someone said the neck on the 35 Whelen Ackely Improved chamber is longer. The neck is longer because the shoulder/neck juncture is set back, The base body/shoulder juncture is forward if the 35 Whelen.

So? If the plan includes fire forming there is no way for the case to head space on the shoulder/neck juncture.
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Thanks Guffey, those are things I was unaware of. :)
 
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mapsjanhere

New member
You could always invent the 35 Wheelen rimmed, by forming the cartridge from a 9.3x74R case. I always thought break action rifles do better with rimmed cartridges.
 
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hhunter318

New member
Mapsjanhere,

That would be cool, but the 9.3x74R case is too small right in front of the rim for it to fully clean up the 35 whelen chamber. (.465 vs .472 for the Whelen)
 
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FrankenMauser

New member
That would be cool, but the 9.3x74R case is too small right in front of the rim for it to fully clean up the 35 whelen chamber. (.465 vs .472 for the Whelen)
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Actual production dimensions rarely meet SAAMI specifications.

Measure the chamber before you make decisions based on its assumed dimensions. ;)
 
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