Re-thinking my Hi-Power clone

[Aguila Blanca]

Years ago, when they were cheap and available, I bought an FM (not FN) Hi-Power, made in Argentina under license from FN Herstal. It's a nice pistol, but I don't shoot it much ... I'm primarily a 1911 guy, and I bought the Hi-Power only out of curiosity, and because its lineage involved John M. Browning.

I have considered trying it in IDPA competition but the FM Hi-Power, like the original FN Hi-Power, has a magazine disconnect. That, obviously, significantly complicates the process of dropping the magazine, racking the slide to show empty, and then dropping the hammer on an empty chamber. IDPA rules allow the removal of magazine disconnects, but I have resisted the temptation up to now because of potential legal ramifications if I should ever be in a situation in which I use the pistol for self defense.

But, as Bob Dylan said in one of his songs, "The times they are a' changin'." Not only does the new Springfield Armory Hi-Power clone not have a magazine disconnect, I just learned that the newly-revised and re-introduced FN High Power also does not have a magazine disconnect. That suggests to me that removal of the dingus (pardon my use of technical terminology) might be defensible in court, in the extremely unlikely event that I ever were to use my Hi-Power in a self-defense situation. So I'm now thinking seriously about removing the magazine disconnect and storing it in the box with the pistol.

Opinions, please.

 

[TunnelRat]

In the beginning you state you bought the Hi Power out of curiosity. Assuming you don’t carry the pistol now it would seem like you could take out the magazine disconnect, compete with the pistol for a bit to see if you like it, and then decide if you want to carry the pistol and deal with the legal implications of that.

While I do get your points about the SA and FN models, those aren’t your pistol. They’re similar models made by other manufacturers. If the concern is that someone is going to make a legal mountain out of removing that part, which would require a level of familiarity with the pistol, then it would seem to me someone like that would point out the manufacturer of your particular pistol did include a magazine disconnect.

As a side note, given the prevalence of the Hi Power I have to believe people have competed in IDPA with such a pistol with a magazine disconnect. The range officers would have to have some kind of provision for dealing with that, as the Hi Power isn’t the only pistol with a magazine disconnect.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pahoo]

Go for it !!

That suggests to me that removal of the dingus (pardon my use of technical terminology) might be defensible in court, in the extremely unlikely event that I ever were to use my Hi-Power in a self-defense situation. So I'm now thinking seriously about removing the magazine disconnect and storing it in the box with the pistol.

Personally I don't feel that it would be a problem, with all the clones, up-grades and even "some" original browning HP's, not having this feature. As you probably know by now, it's not difficult to remove or reinstall. Is this safety interlock for the a real issue in court if it comes into play or not. I once heard that using HP ammo, could be an issue but that one has been debated and mostly ignored. .....

Be Safe !!!

 

[44 AMP]

I have often heard of the possible "terrible impact" it will have on your image in court but I wonder, really, what can they actually do??

OK, we all know that a "good shoot" won't go to court but you count on that and you might be unpleasantly surprised. SO, assume the shoot is in question and your in court.

You have removed the magazine disconnect (I will NOT call it a safety) and the DA knows this. What can he possibly do, other than try and call your character into question with the emotional appeal that you deliberately disabled a factory safety feature to make the gun "easier to shoot" or "more deadly" or "let you kill easier", or some other simialr tripe???

Now, obviously, any one who knows anything about guns, or claims to will be excluded from the jury if the prosecutor can manage it.

But it seems to me that any competent lawyer could easily demolish the DA's argument with a simple non technical explanation of what the magazine disconnect is, what it does, and what it does not do. Maybe get Kinko's (are they even still around??) to make some nice poster size pictures...

It does not make the gun easier to shoot, or more deadly in any way. It CAN'T. It only functions when the magazine is removed from the gun. Period. No other time. so, simplest is "was the magazine in the pistol at the time of the shooting?" IF the answer is yes, then the disconnector is a moot point. (and if the answer is no, then how did you shoot the gun?? malfunction allowing you to fire the chambered round is the only way.

But i can't see how that could affect things, IF your defense is "yes I meant to shoot" and not "it was an accident. THose are vastly different things. IF you claim self defense, you are admitting you did shoot and that you meant to, and your defense is that the act was justified.

Btw, are you aware of the "story" that it was the French govt who demanded the magazine disconnect be built into the Hi Power or they wouldn't buy any?
And, that after FN put it in, the French never did buy any, anyway??

I would take it out, and not lose any sleep over it. Better yet, if possible, I would get one of the Springfield SA-35s, and put the FM on the market.

 

[Pahoo]

I feel better

I would take it out, and not lose any sleep over it. Better yet, if possible, I would get one of the Springfield SA-35s, and put the FM on the market.

44 AMP

You bring out some good valid points and this afternoon, got to thinking about my previous reply. I asked myself this question; "Would I sell an HP that I had removed this featured. "No"; I would restore it as that is the way it came, from the factory and I have often done this. That way, the buyer gets what he paid for. I get rid of a few parts, I don't need and he has the option of making this change himself...

Be Safe !!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

SO, assume the shoot is in question and your in court.

You have removed the magazine disconnect (I will NOT call it a safety) and the DA knows this. What can he possibly do, other than try and call your character into question with the emotional appeal that you deliberately disabled a factory safety feature to make the gun "easier to shoot" or "more deadly" or "let you kill easier", or some other simialr tripe???

Well, that's the whole problem: an overzealous prosecutor telling a jury that I removed a safety device that was installed by the factory.

The only reason I'm considering it now is that new models of the Hi-Power from both Springfield Armory and from FN (the original manufacturer) now DON'T have the magazine disconnect, which could make it easier to argue that it isn't an essential safety device.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

I remember you telling me the gun had the magazine safety removed when you bought it. No telling how many owners that old gun has had.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I remember you telling me the gun had the magazine safety removed when you bought it. No telling how many owners that old gun has had.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I bought it new in 2005, from Sarco. It definitely has the magazine disconnect intact.

 

[Sevens]

You could kill two birds with one stone by purchasing either the new FN or the Springfield. Then you would have no magazine disconnect safety and no prosector could accuse you of removing one.

 

[highpower3006]

I had one of the FM pistols and I really liked it, unfortunately it was stolen from me 27 years ago.

As for the other thing, I guess it might be just me, but I think you are way over thinking this. First, as has been pointed out, the magazine disconnect has absolutely nothing to do with the pistol's ability to fire when a magazine is in place. I think for the sake of argument, that assuming that if you actually shoot someone with your gun, that the magazine is going to be installed so you access to cartridges.

I am not going to play endless games positing "what if" scenarios ad nauseum as I feel that if you are that concerned with every possible nuance that might occur, you should consider a different gun for SD. Or perhaps discard firearms as a self defense tool and stick to less than lethal options.

Since my FM Hipower was stolen I replaced it with a "C" series Hipower from FN and when I bought it it was quite evident there had been a considerable amount of tuning done to it, but the stupid magazine safety was still present. One of the first things I did was remove it and it was amazing how much that one change improved the trigger.

If you are thinking of using yours for competition, I can't imagine leaving the disconnect in place unless you just want to see how difficult you can make shooting a match.

Now I will be the first to admit that the old Browning has become nothing more than a range toy as I have many other guns that are far better suited for in home self defense and many others that are easier to conceal, are lighter and have a higher capacity, making them a much better choice as my preferred EDC CCW.

As an example think Glock 43x/48 w/Shield Arms magazines. Either of these make dandy CCW or a general defense arm and with one of these you would no longer have to worry about a magazine disconnect, plus you would have 15+1 capacity instead of the 13+1 of a Highpower.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

This is simple, I removed mine and have never given it a thought. It’s a range toy only. I have several other guns for SD, and most of them have some sort of aftermarket stuff done to improve the trigger. This is done to improve accuracy and decrease the odds of shooting an innocent bystander. If, heaven forbid, I ever do have to defend myself I’m not trying to kill someone, I’m trying to stop them from killing me or my loved ones. If they die in the process, so be it.

 

[jar]

I've never found the magazine disconnect on any of the HiPower or HiPower clones (or other brands that also had that feature) I've owned or still own a serious issue. I will admit that I'd probably be hesitant to buy a used HiPower or clone that had the magazine disconnect removed simply because it's an indication that a prior owner was mucking around with the innards. I can understand someone that uses their HiPower for some of the sports removing theirs but as an SD choice I see it as a potential asset.

 

[RickB]

I've shot IDPA with my Hi-Power, and while the dingus is no help to shooting good scores, tearing out the mag as you go to your belt for the reload does not really slow things much, and you'll find more opportunities for tac loads as a result.

I'd rate the typical crappy HP trigger as much more of an impediment than the mags not dropping free.
If your fingers are long enough, you can "goose" the disconnect through the magwell and not need a mag to drop the hammer on UaSC.

Magazine disconnects as "safeties" should come into play, in court, only if an incident may have been influenced by the disconnect being removed. There have been plenty of incidents in which someone believed they had unloaded a gun by merely removing a magazine, and if your gun were involved in something like that, then you could possibly be in trouble.
A young girl was shot by her boyfriend when she invited him over to the house where she was babysitting, he decided to explore the house, found a gun with no disconnect, thought he'd unloaded it, and you can imagine how that turned out.
But the disconnect serves no safety function when you intend to load and shoot the gun (just like a grip safety, but I digress . . .), so would have no impact on a "good shoot".

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca ....Well, that's the whole problem: an overzealous prosecutor telling a jury that I removed a safety device that was installed by the factory.

Yet the current owners manual from Browning doesn't describe the magazine disconnect as a safety device.
https://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/support/owners-manuals/2016/12-BFA-323_HiPower%20OM_WEB.pdf
See page 3

An overzealous prosecutor could tell the jury:
-You carried your pistol with a round chambered. The Browning Hi Power Owners manual specifically warns the user to not carry with a round in the chamber. (page 3)
-It also warns the user to carry hammer down.
-that you went looking for trouble because you were carrying a loaded firearm.
-that you used a high capacity magazine beyond the ten round maximum mandated by the Federal Assault Weapons Ban of 1994.

A prosecutor can tell a jury the sun sets in the east. That doesn't make it true.

Much ado about nothing.

 

[Captain Nice]

I wouldn't sweat the small stuff like a magazine disconnect. Today just legally owning no less using a firearm in self defense automatically makes you a criminal in the eyes of many including the news media, prosecutors and juries.
If you had to use your gun in self defense, just think about the display in your local news paper of your legally owned firearms on a table with a prosecutor standing over them.

I'm just thinking about my Beretta PX4 Storm which I have set up for home defense with the following modifications:

1. Slide refinished with a Nickel Boron finish. That's the icing on the cake.
2. F model safety decocker replaced with a G model decocker only.
3. Plastic recoil guide rod replaced with a home made stainless steel rod.
4. Rear sight replaced with a Burris Fast Fire III Red Dot,
5. Olight PL-Mini flashlight attached to Picatinny Rail.

OMG sounds like a life sentence for me.

 

[FairWarning]

If would lose no sleep about the mag disconnect. If someone attacks me, that means they have decided they no longer want to continue in this life.

 

[Paul B.]

About the only use I can see for that magazine safety is if a you're fighting a bad guy who is trying to take your gun away from you. Hit the mag release and try to shake the magazine free of the gun. That, and maybe store the gun chamber loaded but no magazine in gun. Might save a curious kid from hurting himself or others. My S&W 9MM has a magazine safety but sure kicks empty mags out with gusto.
Paul B.

 

[platform]

@Aguila Blanca
with regards to
> " just learned that the newly-revised and re-introduced FN High Power also does not have a magazine disconnect."
That FN pistol carries FN Hi Power name, but it a different pistol design with HP grip angle, and a name.
I know that FN owns the trademark - -but applying Hi Power name to a different pistol, dilutes (in my view) the name of Hi Power.

The name re-application like that has been done before. Sig renaming P239 into P225-A1 totally confusing both P239 after-market parts market, and P225.
FN could trying to dissolve or damage the Hi-power after-market parts market.


Springfield SA - is good to go.

 

[chaim]

Well, that's the whole problem: an overzealous prosecutor telling a jury that I removed a safety device that was installed by the factory.

The only reason I'm considering it now is that new models of the Hi-Power from both Springfield Armory and from FN (the original manufacturer) now DON'T have the magazine disconnect, which could make it easier to argue that it isn't an essential safety device.

I understand where you are coming from, and it's a consideration I have made a few times myself. I like a .233/5.56 carbine for home defense but I use a wood stocked Mini-14 over an AR or even black plastic stocked Mini so it can't be portrayed as an Evil Black Rifle should I ever be dragged into court. For CCW, when carrying on my UT non-resident permit out of state, I like a compact service pistol with a standard capacity mag whenever I can carry one. Now that CCW is here in MD, we have a weird mag law (you can own a standard capacity mag, you can buy one out of state and bring it home, but you can't buy or sell one here). I'm debating whether I should stick with guns with a 10 or fewer round mag when carrying in MD (I can picture an overzealous prosecutor or plaintiff attorney trying to make me look bad by explaining how I used a mag I can't legally buy in this state and trying to imply it was somehow something nefarious to do).

That said, I live in MD, one of the most anti-gun states in the US. I live in Central MD where there are fewer gun owners per capita than in most of the country. If I lived somewhere more gun friendly, I'd likely look at it differently.

Only you can decide what you are comfortable with. If carrying the gun with the magazine disconnect disabled makes you nervous, then disconnect it but carry a different gun. Or if you need to disconnect it for the competitions you do but you really want to carry it, carry it and don't disconnect it, but use a different gun in competition. Or, get the FN or SA and have one gun you can be comfortable using for both.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

@Aguila Blanca
with regards to
> " just learned that the newly-revised and re-introduced FN High Power also does not have a magazine disconnect."
That FN pistol carries FN Hi Power name, but it a different pistol design with HP grip angle, and a name.
I know that FN owns the trademark - -but applying Hi Power name to a different pistol, dilutes (in my view) the name of Hi Power.

Completely unrelated to the topic of this discussion, but thank you.