What do you all think of this statement? That the Swiss are the freest people on earth,bare none, and as a heavily armed people, will remain free after even the United States becomes a historical footnote. The Swiss have been a free people since around 1300: a record that far surpasses this country. not even the powerful Third Reich dared to invade Switzerland because of the huge armed populace. There is no real crime in this country and the system is set up so the three racial groups get along fine. Our Republic has already moved into the next step before dictatorship; mob democracy. But the Swiss have basically keep the same system since the 14th century. No slaughter of peoples or chaos in this great country. Everyone is armed and no Stalin, Mao, Hitler,or Big Comrade would stand a chance. Hats off to the Swiss. Not enough credit is given to this peaceful, free people. What do you think?
Re: Switzerland, the freest nation on earth
- Thread starter Ivan8883
- Start date
A lot of what you say is true, however...
The Swiss are, above all, smart and fortunately, their leaders have adhered to the role/mission set up hundreds of years ago...i.e. the "official" neutral nation. They have created an important niche for themselves as a place of neutrality where combatants can meet, negotiate, etc.
However, along with that came a certain amount of business/financial collaboration with the 3rd Reich (financial holdings of Jews killed by the Nazi's, etc).
Let's not get carried away and imply some sort of invincibility to the Swiss...had Hitler really wanted to, he could have over-run them...they had no air force to speak of. They remain free because they have made themselves indispensible.
That said, it would be extremely costly to conquer them in a land war...and they are a wise people to remain well armed and trained
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
The Swiss are, above all, smart and fortunately, their leaders have adhered to the role/mission set up hundreds of years ago...i.e. the "official" neutral nation. They have created an important niche for themselves as a place of neutrality where combatants can meet, negotiate, etc.
However, along with that came a certain amount of business/financial collaboration with the 3rd Reich (financial holdings of Jews killed by the Nazi's, etc).
Let's not get carried away and imply some sort of invincibility to the Swiss...had Hitler really wanted to, he could have over-run them...they had no air force to speak of. They remain free because they have made themselves indispensible.
That said, it would be extremely costly to conquer them in a land war...and they are a wise people to remain well armed and trained
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
As I recall, they were also the first nation to field a semi-auto battle rifle. Darn, it was called a...ah...Lljungman? Something like that. In any case, it was a 6.5mm, and very accurate. In a country not suited to blitzkrieg "lightning warfare", whose national sport is shooting, I'm sure it was a factor. (Germany, on the other hand, had its civilians disarmed before hostilities started with other nations. I'm sure for the Germans- as the Japanese- it was hell on the learning curve! 
)
I'm sure that DC's points are valid- as usual- but I will say that Hitler's strategy didn't always make a lot of sense. I can see an armed, furiously nationalistic people as being more a deterrent than finance, which is not to understate the importance of any Byzantine strategies.
)I'm sure that DC's points are valid- as usual- but I will say that Hitler's strategy didn't always make a lot of sense. I can see an armed, furiously nationalistic people as being more a deterrent than finance, which is not to understate the importance of any Byzantine strategies.
Danger Dave
New member
Spectre, Mexico was the first to adopt a semi-auto battle rifle - the Mondragon.
I remember a story about one of the British MP's (?) talking to the Swiss gov't. The Englishman asked the Swiss what they would do if the Germans invaded, since they'd be outnumbered 5 to 1. The Swiss gentleman responded that, in that case, all of their soldiers would simply fire five times.
The Swiss are nuetral as a result of their military history and prowess. In medieval/early renaissance times (when battles were fought between professional soldiers-for-hire), Swiss pikemen were the elite infantry of Europe. Their training and skill were equal to none. This lasted until two mercenary armies of Swiss pikemen faced each other in battle (I think it was in the 1400's in eastern France - I wish I could remember dates & places). The slaughter was so terrible that the king forbid the Swiss from hiring themselves out to foreign armies, and vowed that Switzerland would remain nuetral from that day forth. So far, they've stuck to it, but have never lost their strong military traditions.
But them Saab Viggens are cool...
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Beginner barbarians probably had the idea that every house they broke into would be full of untouched loot and frightened, unarmed victims. It just doesn't work that way, my friend.
I remember a story about one of the British MP's (?) talking to the Swiss gov't. The Englishman asked the Swiss what they would do if the Germans invaded, since they'd be outnumbered 5 to 1. The Swiss gentleman responded that, in that case, all of their soldiers would simply fire five times.
The Swiss are nuetral as a result of their military history and prowess. In medieval/early renaissance times (when battles were fought between professional soldiers-for-hire), Swiss pikemen were the elite infantry of Europe. Their training and skill were equal to none. This lasted until two mercenary armies of Swiss pikemen faced each other in battle (I think it was in the 1400's in eastern France - I wish I could remember dates & places). The slaughter was so terrible that the king forbid the Swiss from hiring themselves out to foreign armies, and vowed that Switzerland would remain nuetral from that day forth. So far, they've stuck to it, but have never lost their strong military traditions.
But them Saab Viggens are cool...
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Beginner barbarians probably had the idea that every house they broke into would be full of untouched loot and frightened, unarmed victims. It just doesn't work that way, my friend.
Danger Dave
New member
Ooops - I came back to edit that. I realized it after I had posted. But the ever-alert DC busted me before I could fix it... I hang my head in shame.
Hey, even if they are Swedish, they're still cool.
You mean I put my secret stash in SWEDISH bank account????!!!?? Arrrrrggh!!!!
Hey, even if they are Swedish, they're still cool.
You mean I put my secret stash in SWEDISH bank account????!!!?? Arrrrrggh!!!!
My roommate just came back from a month in Switzerland.
He spent most of the time frustrated. He said they are lazy, leave work early, take smoke and coffee breaks all day. He said they obey all rules. People yelled at him for jaywalking when there were no cars in the road. Thus, they can have so many guns, since all (ok, most) are law abiding citizens. He blames the lack of motivation on a basic socialist mentality. There is no motivation to work harder, since all will be rewarded equally. Not sure how that works, but he said that people do the min required so that they don't get fired, but do not push themselves since they won't be rewarded above others.
Bottom line, a completely different place than the US, and I am not sure that Free fully describes the situaton. Free to own fully automatic weapons and the like, but not free to reap the rewards of workign harder than others.
He did go to a gun store, and his jaw hit the floor. An mini-gun was on sale. Maybe being lazy and taking coffee breaks all day wouldn't be such a bad life. I could learn to cross the street only when the light says so.
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Connecticut is the "Constitution" State
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/beefclub
[This message has been edited by othermarc (edited August 10, 1999).]
He spent most of the time frustrated. He said they are lazy, leave work early, take smoke and coffee breaks all day. He said they obey all rules. People yelled at him for jaywalking when there were no cars in the road. Thus, they can have so many guns, since all (ok, most) are law abiding citizens. He blames the lack of motivation on a basic socialist mentality. There is no motivation to work harder, since all will be rewarded equally. Not sure how that works, but he said that people do the min required so that they don't get fired, but do not push themselves since they won't be rewarded above others.
Bottom line, a completely different place than the US, and I am not sure that Free fully describes the situaton. Free to own fully automatic weapons and the like, but not free to reap the rewards of workign harder than others.
He did go to a gun store, and his jaw hit the floor. An mini-gun was on sale. Maybe being lazy and taking coffee breaks all day wouldn't be such a bad life. I could learn to cross the street only when the light says so.
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Connecticut is the "Constitution" State
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/beefclub
[This message has been edited by othermarc (edited August 10, 1999).]
Don't forget that there is a rather formidable natural barrier around der Schloss Schwiessen.
Good battle ground tends to get used more often (historical repetition) than poor battle ground. Now lets see where'd we hear of the Fulda Gap and the Plain of Armageddon?
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Mykl
~~~~~
"If you really want to know what's going on;
then, you have to follow the money trail."
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Good battle ground tends to get used more often (historical repetition) than poor battle ground. Now lets see where'd we hear of the Fulda Gap and the Plain of Armageddon?
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Mykl
~~~~~
"If you really want to know what's going on;
then, you have to follow the money trail."
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Ivan,
Sorry, I can't agree. Swiss immigration laws are some of the toughest in the world. Swiss government is still a monarchy. The Swiss suicide rate is right up there with Japan. Personal freedoms of religion, speech and right to assemble, are virtually non existant. There was a similar thread here last spring, something like "Is the US the best place to live", if I recall. Switzerland may be a nice place to visit, and a great place to live,,,if you are Swiss that is.
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Sorry, I can't agree. Swiss immigration laws are some of the toughest in the world. Swiss government is still a monarchy. The Swiss suicide rate is right up there with Japan. Personal freedoms of religion, speech and right to assemble, are virtually non existant. There was a similar thread here last spring, something like "Is the US the best place to live", if I recall. Switzerland may be a nice place to visit, and a great place to live,,,if you are Swiss that is.
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If you ever hiked around In them mountains up and down , up and down....them folks over there are way too tired to start a ruckus with anybody.
Including their next door neighbors, the boss, the mother-in-law, or a foreighn power.....as far as going in their a fightin' with a full battle pack, up and down, up and down....you gota be crazy'.
I think it has something to do with the Chocalate , every body is in way to good a mood. Ever seen anybody pissed off with a chocalte bar in their hands..!
Including their next door neighbors, the boss, the mother-in-law, or a foreighn power.....as far as going in their a fightin' with a full battle pack, up and down, up and down....you gota be crazy'.
I think it has something to do with the Chocalate , every body is in way to good a mood. Ever seen anybody pissed off with a chocalte bar in their hands..!
Hal, I have to disagree on your comments. In one respect you are correct. The Swiss do have restrictive immigration laws. But it is a small countryand, besides the right to have any type of immigration laws they desire, the Swiss people want to preserve their German, French, and ,to a smaller degree ,their Italian heritages. We could take a lesson from the Swiss as now the INS has been told not to stop the flow into our country. In fact , America is the only nation without any enforcement of its border soverreignty. I heard today that a large town just north of the border in Texas has prohibited its emploees from using English on the job. Disaster loams along our southern border. Dont call me a racist because many of our Hispanic citizens are also riled up about this huge surge from across the border. I have been in Switzerland and sure didnt see any lack of freedoms there . Just the opposite. Our nation, I believe, used to be a lot like Switzerland,but that all ended as "Americas Century" took hold and we became a Imperialist Power in many ways and now are reaping the "rewards" of wars and financial domination. Had America followed the advice of George Washington and stayed out of WWI, the history of the world would have been much better (No WWII<no Hitler,no Communism,and America would still be a agricultural and manufacturing giant) I am degressing, but we and the world can learn from the Swiss about the follies of wars that enrich in the final analysis the elites and makes slaves of the masses(we pay 50% taxes right now; lets go to 80%. We have more wars to fund!)
no hitler, no Communism, and no huge national Debt) George Washington must have been thinking of the Swiss when he talked about no entangling alliances. "America's Century" has now turned into a disaster for this country as we are brankrupt from decades of wars and taxation because of these Imperial wars. I would put money that George was thinking about the Swiss when he gave his farewell address.
Ivan,
You make some good points about our involvement in matters that don't concern us,(with the latest being Kosavo).RE:WWI, the assanation of a relativly obscure archduke, while important to Europeans, really was of no concern of the US. Communist and socialist groups were forming everywhere early in the century, and even without WWI, the reds would have tried to overthrow the czarist rule. The world would still have had Mao (who actually started as an admirer of Democracy but invented his own version), but probobly not Stalin(that would have saved millions of lives right there).Hitler would still have been around, but just some unknown painter, and like so many others,faded into history as a never been. It's good and fun to play what if, but the sad, or glorious fact, depending on you viewpoint, is we have to live with what we got. IMHO, as bad as we seem to have it here in the US, we are still way ahead of the rest of the world.
Back to your original statement: I agree 100% with the not enough credit is given to the Swiss part. I feel a lot of that lack of credit is because of the Swiss viewpoint on armed citizens, and the lack of any way for the media to demonize that fact. While this may seem to contradict the above,I think we should look at all things worldwide, and see how best we can fit them into our own system.
*Actually, I see Washington's farewell address as more of a warning to the nation to beware of following in the footsteps of the Jacobins, but that's just the way I view it.
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You make some good points about our involvement in matters that don't concern us,(with the latest being Kosavo).RE:WWI, the assanation of a relativly obscure archduke, while important to Europeans, really was of no concern of the US. Communist and socialist groups were forming everywhere early in the century, and even without WWI, the reds would have tried to overthrow the czarist rule. The world would still have had Mao (who actually started as an admirer of Democracy but invented his own version), but probobly not Stalin(that would have saved millions of lives right there).Hitler would still have been around, but just some unknown painter, and like so many others,faded into history as a never been. It's good and fun to play what if, but the sad, or glorious fact, depending on you viewpoint, is we have to live with what we got. IMHO, as bad as we seem to have it here in the US, we are still way ahead of the rest of the world.
Back to your original statement: I agree 100% with the not enough credit is given to the Swiss part. I feel a lot of that lack of credit is because of the Swiss viewpoint on armed citizens, and the lack of any way for the media to demonize that fact. While this may seem to contradict the above,I think we should look at all things worldwide, and see how best we can fit them into our own system.
*Actually, I see Washington's farewell address as more of a warning to the nation to beware of following in the footsteps of the Jacobins, but that's just the way I view it.
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Ivan:
Sir, if this land had "restrictive immigration", there would be virtually no-one here. Some scientists believe that everyone on this continent is an immigrant. I understand keeping some border integrity for safety reasons, especially, but that's about it.
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John Shirley
www.e-budo.com
Sir, if this land had "restrictive immigration", there would be virtually no-one here. Some scientists believe that everyone on this continent is an immigrant. I understand keeping some border integrity for safety reasons, especially, but that's about it.
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John Shirley
www.e-budo.com
From what I've read the countryside of Switzerland is not very conducive for battle, really moutainous. Lots of hidden places.Basically the cost of conquering is to high for the return.
Additionally, IMHO smaller societies have an easier time with running an orderly society.
In my past education It was learned that the best societies were small trible societies.
Again IMHO 250 million people is to large to be under one government
Additionally, IMHO smaller societies have an easier time with running an orderly society.
In my past education It was learned that the best societies were small trible societies.
Again IMHO 250 million people is to large to be under one government
I may be wrong, but i think you have Sweden confused with the Swiss. i think Sweden pays 76% in total taxes,but the Swiss. Speaking of taxes, the citizens of the corporate US Govt. pay 50% total taxes now and either Sen. Boxer or Sen Feinstein BRAGGED at a new conference awile back that in 8 years us sheeple will be paying 80% in total taxes. And not a reporter said anything! And what do US indentured citizens get for their taxes? Paying the interest on the huge federal debt created by the Federal Reserve. Sorry, mentioning taxes always sets me off.
the lljungmann is swedish , too, not swiss.
they aren't really lazy, most european countries are having problems finding jobs for thier people, and often split jobs between two workers. 30 hrs or less is a full work week for many. they also have mortgages that run 100 years or more so that proerty can be bought at reasonable rates.
sig designed their first semi battle rifle, but i've forgotten the model. it predates the aug by many years.fwiw, it's just a different place, with different rules and goals.
they aren't really lazy, most european countries are having problems finding jobs for thier people, and often split jobs between two workers. 30 hrs or less is a full work week for many. they also have mortgages that run 100 years or more so that proerty can be bought at reasonable rates.
sig designed their first semi battle rifle, but i've forgotten the model. it predates the aug by many years.fwiw, it's just a different place, with different rules and goals.