RCBS vs Redding
- Thread starter ADIDAS69
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ShootistPRS
New member
Just paying more for a set of dies will not ensure a better loaded round.
The cost of the equipment is secondary to your reloading needs. If you are competing at long range targets you might need different gear than if you are reloading for hunting. If you only shoot at targets for recreation it is unlikely that you need expensive dies. I have used RCBS dies for 45 years and get all the accuracy I need for hunting and shooting sub-MOA groups at the local range. I used RCBS dies when I was competing in Hunters Pistol Silhouette for three years and was the top shooter.
It all depends on what you want and how you feel about equipment and the results you get.
The cost of the equipment is secondary to your reloading needs. If you are competing at long range targets you might need different gear than if you are reloading for hunting. If you only shoot at targets for recreation it is unlikely that you need expensive dies. I have used RCBS dies for 45 years and get all the accuracy I need for hunting and shooting sub-MOA groups at the local range. I used RCBS dies when I was competing in Hunters Pistol Silhouette for three years and was the top shooter.
It all depends on what you want and how you feel about equipment and the results you get.
I've reloaded just shy of 100,000 rounds thus far and have no specific complaints. All my rifles are MOA or better out to 600 meters. I'm getting close to replacing dies and have recently discovered small base dies are a thing. Then I started researching and discovered the "full length" resizing dies I've been using apparently aren't actually resizing the full length. This is frustrating mostly from a denotative perspective and also explains some of the chambering issues I've had especially as I reach the 4-5th reload of a given piece of brass. In any event Redding and RCBS seem to be the more expensive (maybe superior) options. So I figured I'd ask.
ShootistPRS
New member
Full length dies do not size a case completely back to its "as produced" size. The area just ahead of the web almost always develops a bulge or taper down to the base or head of the case. In most cases a small base die is unnecessary even in most autos, pumps, and lever actions. Sometimes a small base die is necessary to provide free chambering in those specific guns. Small base dies work the brass more than other dies so case life can be diminished unless the chamber is small in its diameter.
As a reloader I have a different discipline, I measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before and again after firing. Another discipline, don't shoot all of your new cases, save a few for comparison.
A reloaders should be able to determine if the case was sized and they should have a good understanding of minimum length/full length sizing. A reloader full length sized a case (and then there is the big question), to what?
F. Guffey
Stats Shooter
New member
I use several different brands for different purposes. Even Lee makes some dies that are superior, such as the Lee neck sizing dies...0 run-out. I like the Forster ultimate micrometer seating dies I have used very much. RCBS equipment is great too. Redding body dies are nice because they do not touch the neck. RCBS FL dies have really low run-out for a FL die and expander ball setup.
With presses and such, it seems Dillon is a cut above the rest, then Redding and RCBS, then Hornady and Lee. But with respect to dies, it seems each has a niche.
With presses and such, it seems Dillon is a cut above the rest, then Redding and RCBS, then Hornady and Lee. But with respect to dies, it seems each has a niche.
Reloader270
New member
I have thought I had upgraded my die sets some time ago when a bought a few Redding die sets. Although it is high quality, there is a few things I do not like about them - 1) The expander ball requires much more lubrication of the case necks that other brands; 2) The sizer die does not have any vent hole as all other brands have these days and 3) the lock ring is crap - once it is locked you do not get it to release from the die unless you smack it hard on a wooden surface.
If I were you I would go for the RCBS. Good quality with excellent backup from the factory.
If I were you I would go for the RCBS. Good quality with excellent backup from the factory.
I use both and have found both to be good quality. There is something about the Redding dies that just give the impression they are better but I can't say what it is exactly. Perhaps it's the sharp machine work evident on the outside of the body.
My RCBS dies have worked perfectly for decades, customer support should you need it, is outstanding. They cost less than the Redding counterparts, so IMO they represent a bit better value.
My RCBS dies have worked perfectly for decades, customer support should you need it, is outstanding. They cost less than the Redding counterparts, so IMO they represent a bit better value.
Stats Shooter
New member
I think this is the case with many things beyond reloading dies.
That's why I just buy the die that best does the job I need it to do, without a pretentious need to spend the most.
The simple answer is use the dies that produce the most precise ammo for your rifle. Sorry, not trying to be a wise-guy!ADIDAS69 said:
You need to have some gauges to measure what the result of what your sizing is doing & what your desired result is. A concentricy gauge is a must in my opinion. A good micrometer will also allow measuring case head status among other things. A headspace datum set on a decent caliper is needed also. With precise measuring,you may find differences in straightness within the same brand, even from die to die. It is also very possible that the cheapest dies (Lee) may make the straightest ammo. Although personally I have never found any advantage with this technique, but FL sizing with the stem removed then backing the die way out & expanding the neck as a separate operation can sometimes make straighter ammo. I prefer RCBS, but I have some redding body dies & Lee collet dies. I like straight line seater dies, not because they necessarily make straighter ammo, but I think that there is less chance of damaging the heel of the bullet during seating.
Just FWIW...
Fotheringill
New member
From my experience ONLY:
Lee neck sizing die will give less runout than RCBS and Redding Competition.
I would invest the $23 and get one.
That being said, For seating, I found the Redding holds the depth better than the RCBS.
Redding is made here, RCBS is made across the Pacific.
Lee neck sizing die will give less runout than RCBS and Redding Competition.
I would invest the $23 and get one.
That being said, For seating, I found the Redding holds the depth better than the RCBS.
Redding is made here, RCBS is made across the Pacific.
Have dies from both and there's zero difference between 'em.
The only reason to buy RCBS is their warrantee. Otherwise, no. The only thing Redding does that RCBS does not is the micrometer seating die that isn't necessary anyway.
At one time Redding and RCBS were the same place. Not that it matters.
The only reason to buy RCBS is their warrantee. Otherwise, no. The only thing Redding does that RCBS does not is the micrometer seating die that isn't necessary anyway.
At one time Redding and RCBS were the same place. Not that it matters.
If you take the trouble to measure your sized cases at the pressure ring diameter, shoulder diameter and head to shoulder length you will find the two dies sets are very similar. They produce almost identical cases.
RCBS will sometimes be a little longer head to shoulder.
Considering availability and price I prefer RCBS because it is so easy to find a good used set at about half price.
RCBS will sometimes be a little longer head to shoulder.
Considering availability and price I prefer RCBS because it is so easy to find a good used set at about half price.
Stats Shooter
New member
Basically, everyone is reiterating what I said earlier, different dies have different strengths/weaknesses and no manufacturer makes every single die type.
If all you are doing is FL sizing with an expander ball, and seating bullets at SAAMI OAL, Then both Redding and RCBS will do just fine. In fact I read a report that showed less run-out from RCBS than any other expander ball type FL die.
If you are seating VLD bullets, then I recommend Forster because Thier micrometer seater has 0 run-out, and can handle both compressed loads and VLD bullets Which neither Redding nor RCBS can without modification.
If you want an efficient FL sizing and want to control neck diameter all in one step- then Redding S type bushing dies or Forster Bump dies.
If you don't mind a two step sizing approach AND want zero run-out, then a Redding body die, Lee mandrel neck die, and a micrometer bullet seater with guide.
If all you are doing is FL sizing with an expander ball, and seating bullets at SAAMI OAL, Then both Redding and RCBS will do just fine. In fact I read a report that showed less run-out from RCBS than any other expander ball type FL die.
If you are seating VLD bullets, then I recommend Forster because Thier micrometer seater has 0 run-out, and can handle both compressed loads and VLD bullets Which neither Redding nor RCBS can without modification.
If you want an efficient FL sizing and want to control neck diameter all in one step- then Redding S type bushing dies or Forster Bump dies.
If you don't mind a two step sizing approach AND want zero run-out, then a Redding body die, Lee mandrel neck die, and a micrometer bullet seater with guide.
If you have Redding seater you can up grade.
http://www.redding-reloading.com/in...d=126:micrometer-seat-stems-for-standard-dies
http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/198-vld-competition-seater-chart
http://www.redding-reloading.com/in...d=126:micrometer-seat-stems-for-standard-dies
http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/198-vld-competition-seater-chart
Be aware that the upgrade just adds a micrometer adjustment to their standard seating die. It does not give it the abilities of their competition seating die to align bullets. I got a four-fold decrease in runout in .30-06 when I went from a standard Redding seater to their Competition Seating Die (back around 1990-92 period).
When German Salazar's Rifleman's Journal was still open to the public, he had a test of five different seating dies. The Redding Competition Seater was the only one he found could actually reduce runout to less than the neck runout in a case. It also produced the tightest groups, outperforming even the Wilson arbor press seating dies that the AccurateShooter/6mmBR site extols. It blew past a Vicker's competition seater, and one other that I've forgotten, both in terms of measured runout and results on the paper.
Unfortunately, Salazar did not include the Forster Ultimate seater in his test. It used the original sliding case alignment sleeve patent, a design Forster bought after it had changed hands two or three times, IIRC. That patent expired in 1989, and Redding designed a copy and then added a floating seating stem to it and got a new patent issued that same year to cover the addition, claiming it would align a bullet under one set of circumstances in which the original design would not. I don't actually know if that circumstance shows up often enough to matter so I don't know how the Forster and Redding tools compare in the final analysis.
In the Salazar tests the RCBS standard seating die came in second. Some time ago, John Feamster found the RCBS competition seater to be inferior in produced runout to their standard RCBS seater (Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, 1995). The standard RCBS seating ram is on a long, thin threaded adjustment rod, and apparently that flexes enough to act like a floating stem. Feamster got less runout from it than any other dies he tried, but he only tried the Wilson and the RCBS standard and RCBS Competition dies, IIRC.
I know that's not how it's supposed to be, but it seems to be that's how it is. The Redding seater is by far the most expensive. I haven't tried the Forster simply because I tried the Redding first and was so impressed with it that I've just bitten the bullet and gotten them for all my rifle calibers ever since.
Yet another option for seating exists. A limitation for seating dies is that they have to work to straighten the bullet, which most folks just set on top of the sized case mouth and guide with their fingers until it starts into the press. You can prevent most runout using any seating die if the bullet starts into the die already straightened. This can be accomplished using e Lyman M die. These dies are neck expanders that put a small expanded step in the case neck at the mouth. The bullet sets into the step and thus starts into the case straight, regardless of whose seating die you use. This greatly reduces the chance of producing high bullet runout.
Regarding the Redding lock rings, they have a small piece of lead or other soft alloy at the end of the screw that provides very positive grip. They won't hurt the threads unless that little piece falls out and you drive the adjustment screw in without it. I've had that happen. Since I use a Forster Co-ax press, at one point I just bought a bag full of their cross-bolt type lock rings and use those. RCBS has them that do the same. If you prefer one with flats for a wrench, the Hornady design is what you want. The ⅞-14 standard die threads make all lock rings interchangeable. Just get what you want.
Regarding Redding or any other expander design, steel expanders need inside neck lube, regardless of the type. However, the carbide expanders, which are available for Redding, Lyman, and RCBS, greatly reduce the friction. I've found, using a Redding sizing die I have, that changing to the carbide PLUS using inside dry neck lube, pretty much stopped the expander from pulling necks off-axis. So it's another thing you can try if you are having that problem. The Lee Collet Die remains the cat's meow for zero neck runout, though.
When German Salazar's Rifleman's Journal was still open to the public, he had a test of five different seating dies. The Redding Competition Seater was the only one he found could actually reduce runout to less than the neck runout in a case. It also produced the tightest groups, outperforming even the Wilson arbor press seating dies that the AccurateShooter/6mmBR site extols. It blew past a Vicker's competition seater, and one other that I've forgotten, both in terms of measured runout and results on the paper.
Unfortunately, Salazar did not include the Forster Ultimate seater in his test. It used the original sliding case alignment sleeve patent, a design Forster bought after it had changed hands two or three times, IIRC. That patent expired in 1989, and Redding designed a copy and then added a floating seating stem to it and got a new patent issued that same year to cover the addition, claiming it would align a bullet under one set of circumstances in which the original design would not. I don't actually know if that circumstance shows up often enough to matter so I don't know how the Forster and Redding tools compare in the final analysis.
In the Salazar tests the RCBS standard seating die came in second. Some time ago, John Feamster found the RCBS competition seater to be inferior in produced runout to their standard RCBS seater (Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, 1995). The standard RCBS seating ram is on a long, thin threaded adjustment rod, and apparently that flexes enough to act like a floating stem. Feamster got less runout from it than any other dies he tried, but he only tried the Wilson and the RCBS standard and RCBS Competition dies, IIRC.
I know that's not how it's supposed to be, but it seems to be that's how it is. The Redding seater is by far the most expensive. I haven't tried the Forster simply because I tried the Redding first and was so impressed with it that I've just bitten the bullet and gotten them for all my rifle calibers ever since.
Yet another option for seating exists. A limitation for seating dies is that they have to work to straighten the bullet, which most folks just set on top of the sized case mouth and guide with their fingers until it starts into the press. You can prevent most runout using any seating die if the bullet starts into the die already straightened. This can be accomplished using e Lyman M die. These dies are neck expanders that put a small expanded step in the case neck at the mouth. The bullet sets into the step and thus starts into the case straight, regardless of whose seating die you use. This greatly reduces the chance of producing high bullet runout.
Regarding the Redding lock rings, they have a small piece of lead or other soft alloy at the end of the screw that provides very positive grip. They won't hurt the threads unless that little piece falls out and you drive the adjustment screw in without it. I've had that happen. Since I use a Forster Co-ax press, at one point I just bought a bag full of their cross-bolt type lock rings and use those. RCBS has them that do the same. If you prefer one with flats for a wrench, the Hornady design is what you want. The ⅞-14 standard die threads make all lock rings interchangeable. Just get what you want.
Regarding Redding or any other expander design, steel expanders need inside neck lube, regardless of the type. However, the carbide expanders, which are available for Redding, Lyman, and RCBS, greatly reduce the friction. I've found, using a Redding sizing die I have, that changing to the carbide PLUS using inside dry neck lube, pretty much stopped the expander from pulling necks off-axis. So it's another thing you can try if you are having that problem. The Lee Collet Die remains the cat's meow for zero neck runout, though.
As previously stated, different manufacturers are better for differing purposes.
And yes they just be opinions based on the dies bought over the years, and yes some things change over time.
Redding has a much better comp seater for controlling runout. RCBS just allows seating bullet through front. Redding offers comp handgun seating dies. Bonanza are close to Redding, significantly cheaper and have some calibers redding doesn't.
RCBS for the 308/223 sb sizing die. Better adjustability of shoulder to base measurement, without changing shell holders.
Lee for the sizing dies for older lever calibers, as they do not act as sb dies in the levers.
Lyman for .40 and 45 acp carbide sizing dies. You can bend over the bottom lip to size significantly further down on the case.
Lyman case belling die set for pistols using lead, help keep bullets straighter from the get go.
Have preference for RCBS straight walled pistol dies.
Am betting those differences are just scratching the surface.
And yes they just be opinions based on the dies bought over the years, and yes some things change over time.
Redding has a much better comp seater for controlling runout. RCBS just allows seating bullet through front. Redding offers comp handgun seating dies. Bonanza are close to Redding, significantly cheaper and have some calibers redding doesn't.
RCBS for the 308/223 sb sizing die. Better adjustability of shoulder to base measurement, without changing shell holders.
Lee for the sizing dies for older lever calibers, as they do not act as sb dies in the levers.
Lyman for .40 and 45 acp carbide sizing dies. You can bend over the bottom lip to size significantly further down on the case.
Lyman case belling die set for pistols using lead, help keep bullets straighter from the get go.
Have preference for RCBS straight walled pistol dies.
Am betting those differences are just scratching the surface.
I've used RCBS, Redding, Lee, Lyman, Texan, Hornady and Dillon dies, the only dies that weren't acceptable was Lee for 45ACP. Seemed a little oversize, bullets loose in the cases. I now buy RCBS dies. I prefer them over the Dillons because they have lock rings and bullet seating adjustment screws. The Redding dies are prettier but I don't know that they are really better than RCBS.
I've used RCBS, Redding, Lee, Lyman, Texan, Hornady and Dillon dies, the only dies that weren't acceptable was Lee for 45ACP. Seemed a little oversize, bullets loose in the cases. I now buy RCBS dies. I prefer them over the Dillons because they have lock rings and bullet seating adjustment screws. The Redding dies are prettier but I don't know that they are really better than RCBS. Also use an old Herter's .270 inline seating die.
Unclenick, When German Salazar did his test and what he used for seater is two different things. When he was doing article on one of his rifles he used a Wilson and I posted picture to you.
https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs...=yhs-mozilla-002&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002
3rd down under his pair of 30-06 he using arbor press loading at the range.
Click on picture and he's using Berger.
https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs...=yhs-mozilla-002&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002
3rd down under his pair of 30-06 he using arbor press loading at the range.
Click on picture and he's using Berger.
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