Rant and ??'s about QC

[Fred]

is it just me, or is good quality control and workmanship becoming a thing of the past?

Details - most of what I own (and it's a bunch ) was purchased in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. My rifles from the 60's have good quality, non-lawyer type, smooth, light triggers. The lasr rifle I purchased about six months ago had a horribly heavy trigger, but I can understand why in this litigious society of ours.

Al my 60's, 70's, 80's handguns are working just fine, thank you very much. My real gripe is with the three latest handguns I bought new this year.

Kimber Eclipse II - great shooter, but had the dark front sight syndrome, as well as a soft slide release notch in the slide, which burred after less than 10 releases of the slide lock lever.

Ruger Bisley in .357 Magnum - fun gun to shoot, very accurate, but has what appears to be one rough chamber in the cylinder, effectively making it a 5 cylinder gun. Whatever the problem is, the brass sticks so badly in that last chamber that the ejector rod can't get it out without me banging on it.

Ruger Blackhawk Convertible in 45LC/45ACP. Just got it, haven't even fired it yet. Noticed that when I rotated the cylinder it seemed to drag a bit. Didn't remember my Bisley doing that. Compared them - it appears the little thingamajiggy at the bottom of the cylinder opening in the frame that locks the cylinder is not retracting fully when the loading gate is opened.

Haven't contacted Kimber yet - having too much fun shooting a very accurate 1911. Need to contact Ruger as well, and see what they want me to do. Hopefully they will help with shipping charges, as I sure don't want to pay to send two guns back to them.

OK, I feel just a little bit better. Now where did I put that Paxil....

 

[C.R.Sam]

Agree.
Good fit, function and finish are becoming pleasant suprises rather than the norm.

Sam

 

[croyance]

I seem to be having pretty uniform luck. I'm not disputing what you say, just that I have never personally had to deal with it. Luck of the draw I guess.

 

[Fred]

Wish I had your luck

I seem to be having pretty uniform luck. I'm not disputing what you say, just that I have never personally had to deal with it. Luck of the draw I guess.

Glad to hear someone has had repeated good luck. Maybe there's hope yet. BTW, in my first post, completely forgot to mention the Taurus 94 .22LR bought new this year that has the absolute worst DA trigger pull I have ever felt. Oh well...

 

[clown714]

I,like to buy, old used stuff!
clown

 

[bullet44]

Quality control is poor on "most" goods now,
the idea is to get it out the door and hope
no one complains. Customer service answer
line may be in pakistan.???

 

[Dfariswheel]

Bad quality control runs in cycles. When S&W was being bled by Bangor Punta and Lear Seegler quality REALLY stunk.

The pits were the late 70's to late 80's. Almost EVERY gun I bought, from every popular gun maker had to be sent back to the factory. problems ranged fron cosmetic to mechanical.
I'm talking Colt Python's, S&W's and Browning firearms.

Defects ran from a Python, that with the rear sight all the way down, was winging them over the top of the target at 25 yards, and the inside of the cylinder that looked like a sewer pipe, to a stainless S&W with the firing pin area in the frame blocked by a large burr of metal and a huge chunk of polishing abrasive.
This was left from when the gun was polished. I didn't see any way the gun could have been test fired with the firing pin hole blocked.

Other goodies were a Remington 742 in 30/06 which was marked as a 308, but wouldn't chamber either round. An early Quality Parts AR-15 carbine (before they changed their name to Bushmaster), with a bore that looked like a corn cob. Sent back and rebarreled 3 times before they finally fitted a stainless barrel and told me basicly to get lost.

I can tell you many a tale of woe, but the point is things have been worse. You guys have just been spoiled by all that good Japanese quality control.

 

[Fred]

I can tell you many a tale of woe, but the point is things have been worse. You guys have just been spoiled by all that good Japanese quality control.

Well, since my shooting partner and I both drive Japanese-branded trucks that run just great, you might be right about that...

 

[KSFreeman]

Ah, yes, the good old days! (the 80s are good, old days?--suddenly feel very old). When boys were men and men were even better. Next we'll start hearing about the Greatest Generation silliness. Complete rubbish.

The guns of whenever had the exact problems of today. However, today most of the guns work from the box. This was not true even 20 years ago. Anytime you mass produce, there will be bad ones. Even (sit down) Glocks! Even S&W under Carl! Even ___________!

The gun business is a business. The purpose of a business should be to make money--lots of it. If you wish the features you seek, you are going to have to pay more because of the rise in fixed labor costs. TANSTAAFL! Labor costs more because of what, class? Anyone?

Your $150 Taurus has a bad trigger pull? Shocking. That's what gunsmiths are for. They could have a nicer trigger for $200.00 but people wouldn't buy it ("I'm not paying that! Stomp, stomp, out the door").

The guns today are far superior to ones made whenever. If you don't have want you desire, gunsmiths will build you what you want, however, there is a cost.

 

[schild]

While I still buy American trucks I've pretty much given up on most American firearms. Buying HK, Sig, Glock, and Walther has solved quality control issues.

 

[bullet44]

"Next we'll start hearing about the Greatest Generation silliness. Complete rubbish."

That's correct WW2 never happened, the people
building the best aircraft in the world were
poor workers.


"The purpose of a business should be to make money--lots of it."

Yes, greed the GOD to all,perfect way to build the
best product.

In your words rubbish.:barf:

 

[KSFreeman]

Bullett, I don't understand your post. The "Greatest Generation" gave us: the NFA, the SSA of `68, Ronnie Raygun and the start of Kali gun laws and the FOPA `86.

What's up with the "poor workers"? The WW2 pork barrel made lots of employees gainfully employed.

"Greed"? You prefer the gun industry to be broke? The profit motive provides an enormous incentive to create for the betterment of all. Did John M. Browning get paid? The A-5??? Was he greedy? Not at all. In fact his wealth allowed him to almost give away the patent rights for three excellent weapons to the Uncle Sugar during the First World War.

I've seen first hand the impact of socialism, which is based on "caring" and enlightment--they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work. Did you know Adam and Eve were the first socialists? The had no food, no clothing and thought they lived in paradise.

I'm all for the gun industry making a lot of money. It ensure that they will be around, create new and better products and keep costs down.

 

[James K]

Hi, guys,

I have no problem with gun companies making money. But I don't buy the idea that they should do so by turning out junk and then expecting their customers to spend more money to have a gunsmith correct the mistakes.

Unlike most other consumer products, a defect in a firearm can be fatal. The fact that most of the buyers are big boys playing with their toys should not obscure the fact that some people have to stake their lives on a gun working when it is supposed to.

As to the idea that a gun should not be expected to work "out of the box" or that it should required hundreds of dollars and weeks of work to do so, or that it should require thousands of rounds of "breaking in" before it will work properly is GARBAGE!

If you were told that about any other product you buy, you would raise the roof! But the one product that could save your life, or cost it, you accept that nonsense without a whimper and even applaud when the maker agrees to fix the POS and does so in less than a year with only two or three returns.

Customer service is not having a sweet young gal to answer the phone; real customer service is making the product right the first time so the phone never rings.

Jim

 

[KSFreeman]

Jim, that's what the free market is for. Say you're a struggling college student bent on seeking a edukashun. Maybe you can't spend the dough for a Les Baer, so you spend less money for a Taurus.

Do not expect your bargain rate weapon to do the same as a more expensive weapon. That's O.K.; that's freedom in operation. If a company turns out "junk", the market will decide that. Look at the California Z guns. They sell like hotcakes and they are "junk." Look at Glocks--inexpensive weapons, but they run like the devil and sell like hotcakes. However, expensive, neverfail Korth?

What guns don't work out of the box? Sounds like a warranty claim to me. Maybe you shouldn't buy those guns?

TANSTAAFL. Only in the minds of politicians is there a free lunch. You have to pay. If you pay less, you will get less. If you pay more, you will get more. If you do not, then a variety of options exist.

 

[gryphon]

Not only is quality control suffering, but so is customer service. I don't mean in the gun industry only, either. It used to be that you wrote a letter to complain about bad service, now I write letters to compliment good service.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Life jacket should float.
Gun should shoot.
Outta the box
every time.

Jim's right

Sam

 

[Fred]

What Sam and Jim said... Sorry, KSFreeman, just don't agree with you about this. No matter what the price, product should work properly. I can understand a cheaper product not having as many features, or not being finished as nicely as a more expensive one, but it still should perform it's basic functions w/o problems.

 

[BigG]

Jim's right.

Some of the quality control issues result from cheap buyers who expect a diamond when they buy a zircon. "How come my 1911 fails to feed." On the third post he admits its a Daly, Rock Island, Brazilian made, Philippine produced, or other obscure brand, not an official government pistol or Colt the original patentee. Well, if you were smart, you spent half of what a good pistol would cost, why would you think it should work properly?

BTW, what butcher of the language came up with the idea that a gun runs? An engine runs, your nose runs, but a gun operates. When properly working it only operates when acted upon by the proper forces, such as a trigger pull for a semi auto. :barf:

 

[BigG]

I would just like to add that there is still quite a bit of art in building a proper 1911 type pistol. The weapon was designed during a time when hand work was cheap, not a cookie cutter approach like used today with computer aided design and machinery.

They can make something look very much like a cough 1911 but it don't necessarily make it one.

Fred, what you will see is the magic of the free market at work. The clones will stop being produced when nobody buys them because the word got out that they don't work. You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time!

 

[KSFreeman]

BigG, the language involving the running of a gun, to my knowledge and belief, comes from the corruption of USMC jargon. Showing one how a piece of equipment "runs" (operates).

It worked its way into the gun culture lexicon through a couple different skuls which are associated with former members of the USMC. You are free to take it up with them.

Fred, I think you misunderstood (or I didn't communicate very well). You get what you pay for and how well a weapon works is dependent on several factors. However, the general rule is you get what you pay for. If you purchase a firearm of any price that does not fire, then you have several options available to you just as with a TV of any price that does not work.

However, my original point remains. The average quality of firearms today far exceeds the weapons of yesteryear. There was junk then; there is junk now. TANSTAAFL.