Greetings all,
I just returned from a trip to the range in which I conducted a very unscientific experiment.
The objective here was to familiarize myself with two new-to-my-collection pistols as well as to compare the performance of several defensive 9mm loads. I had a variety of ammunition of different weights and bullet designs sitting around. In the event, I chose five high quality commercial rounds and an FMJ load as a "control".
They were:
Federal 124 grain Hydra-Shok (20 rounds)
Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P (20 rounds)
Pro Load 115 grain Tactical Grade (20 rounds)
PMC 95 grain Starfire (20 rounds)
PMC 124 grain Starfire (50 rounds)
CCI 115 grain Blazer (200 rounds)
The two pistols used in these unscientific tests were:
1. NIB unfired Heckler and Koch P7M8. I recently purchased this to compliment my favorite refurb P7M8.
2. Walther P-5C. This was purchased a couple months back from the original owner. Not NIB, but VERY well cared for.
I should point out that I am MUCH more familiar with the P7M8 than the P-5C. I had put all of 30 rounds through the Walther prior to today's outing and upwards of 5000 rounds through my other P7s in the past year or so.
My concept was that I would use the Blazer to "break in" the pistols (the P7 in particular had never been fired) and confirm functioning. Then I would use the test loads in each pistol comparing perceived recoil, general accuracy (i.e. ability to repeatedly place shots COM), flash/report, and functional reliability. The plan was a full magazine (8 rounds in each case) of each load through each pistol with the remainder used in mixed magazine strings (more on that latter). I had no chronograph and fired off hand standing rather than from a rest. Target was a standard NRA B-3 "50 foot timed and rapid fire pistol target" placed 30 feet downrange from the firing line. I fired as quickly as I could gain/regain a sight picture. Magazines were loaded into the pistols with the slide locked back and the slide was released mechanically (not hand racked).
I started with the P7M8. I ran the Blazer through loading 5 rounds in each of two magazines. With the sights lined up on the center of the target, the pistol consistently grouped 2-3 inches high and an inch or two left of POA. This was interesting considering both of my refubs and my P7 PSP have come with POA/POI sights. Otherwise, performance was typically boring P7 material - perfect. Function was 100% and the ten round strings kept the pistol from heating too quickly. Still, after 100 rounds of Blazer, the P7M8 was definitely toasty. I put it down to cool and brought out the P5C.
I ran the P-5C through its 100 rounds of Blazer using the same process as with the P7M8. I noted that the stock plastic grips were significantly more comfortable than the beautiful wood grips which the previous owner had installed. POA was POI with the three dot sights. All shots were fired single action and the trigger had a brief but noticeable take up. I was highly impressed with the Walther. One could feel the smoothness of the mechanism. Function was 100% and a firm grip kept the shots going where I intended. Trigger reset distance was very short allowing fast follow up shots without slapping the trigger.
After the Blazer I started the Walther on 8 round strings of each of the defensive loads.
Feed reliability:
All except the Starfire 95 grain fed 100%. With the Starfire 95s, the first round of the magazine nose-dived into the feed ramp. I cleared the weapon and tried again. Same result. This time, I cleared the weapon and compared the first round to three others from the same box. After two close encounters with the ramp, the first round was set back into its case to a noticeable degree. I also noticed that the second round in the magazine had a clearly visible dent in the nickeled case. I decided to discard both rounds. The final six rounds in the magazine fed and fired perfectly.
Flash/report:
The only two loads with noticeable flash were the Hydra Shoks and the Starfire 124 grain. The Hydra Shoks in particular were quite bright even in the well lit indoor range. The Gold Dot +P was considerably louder than the others (I shoot with diaphragm ear plugs under Pro Ears).
Recoil:
Recoil was minimal with the Hydra Shocks and noticeable with all other loads. Both the Pro Load and Starfire 124 grain produced recoil that was very easy to "ride" to a fast recovery of front site on target. The Gold Dot +P load snapped much more than the others.
The P7M8 was much cooler now and I ran it through the same strings as the Walther.
Feed reliability:
All except the Gold Dot fed 100%. The last round in the magazine of Gold Dots caught on the feed ramp. This was not a nose dive (where the round fails to angle up the ramp). The cartridge had made it half way up the feed ramp and lodged there. Tap rack bang did not clear the jam. I ejected the magazine, cleared the pistol and examined the cartridge along with three others from the same box. The bullet on the round in question was noticeably set back into its case. I discarded the round.
Flash/report:
Flash was minimal with all rounds except the Hydra Shok. The Gold Dot +P was again much louder than the others.
Recoil:
The Hydra Shoks and Starfire 95 grain produced minimal felt recoil. The Pro Load and Starfire 124 grain both gave some (the Pro Load's jump, however, seemed very easy to recover from quickly). The recoil of the Gold Dot seemed to be sufficient to unseat the pistol in my grip without a very tight hold.
Mixed magazine tests:
The idea here was to mix differing loads in given magazines to see if functioning changed. I ran two mixed magazines through each pistol. The first magazine was loaded in a function specific manner and the second was loaded to see if the difference in felt recoil among differing loads was noticeable.
P7M8:
I loaded the first magazine in the following order: Starfire 95 grain, Gold Dot +P, Starfire 124 grain, Hydra Shok, Pro Load. I felt the Starfire's blunt nose would provide the most obvious feed challenge and the Gold Dot had given the only previous stoppage in the P7M8. Thus they were first. I fired the entire magazine without a stoppage. I did notice the recoil of the Gold Dot.
The second magazine was loaded in what I thought was an ascending order of recoil intensity: Hydra Shok, Pro Load, Starfire 95 grain, Starfire 124 grain, Gold Dot. Same results as the first magazine. Function was 100%. The Gold Dot was a kicker and the Hydra Shok a *****cat.
P-5C:
First magazine was: Starfire 95 grain, Starfire 124 grain, Gold Dot, Pro Load, Hydra Shok. The first two rounds fired normally. As the pistol loaded the third round (Gold Dot), it seemed to jam with the slide open. I began to instinctively rotate the pistol to the left in order to look into the chamber (muzzle was still pointed safely on target). This was silly as the Walther ejects to the left and thus the ejection port is on the opposite side from most other pistols. As I was trying to look, the slide snapped fully into battery. It was almost as if there had been a "hesitation" rather than a true stoppage. I ejected the magazine and attempted to clear the pistol. The slide would not retract. I checked that the magazine was out, and tried to retract the slide again. It still would not move. I decocked the pistol and tried a third time. No luck. I decided to attempt to fire the round since I could not get it to manually eject. With the magazine still out, I fired the pistol in double action mode. I then inspected the chamber area, ejector, muzzle, and rails and saw nothing out of the ordinary. During this entire process, I was concerned (both for the state of my "new" Walther and the condition of the live round in the chamber) and moved slowly and carefully keeping muzzle discipline foremost in my mind. With the pistol clear, I reinserted the magazine and fired the rest of the rounds without a problem.
The Second magazine through the Walther was a repeat of the second magazine through the P7M8. Results were also the same.
At this point, all I had left was 30 rounds of the Gold Dot +P. I decided to use them in my P7M8 for some faster drills. I had forgotten my homemade COM targets and was out of B-3s. I improvised an 8 inch square (an easier to draw version of the IDPA A-zone circle) and set it to 20 feet. Loading 6 rounds in each of 5 magazines, I began coming up from an imaginary right side holster. First magazine was draw with a single shot onto the target. Even with the much hotter Gold Dots, the POI was very similar to what I had seen with the Blazers. I adjusted and was gratified to see that I could still get the rounds where I wanted them. Second magazine was draw and controlled pair. The last of the six rounds gave an identical jam to what I had experienced earlier with the round sticking halfway up the ramp (this was with a different magazine than the first jam). I cleared it and discarded the round. Final four magazines were accelerating hammers. Although the kick from quick pairs of the Gold Dots was significant and the rapid firing heated the gun quickly, I was getting nicely spaced pairs of holes in my improvised COM. I was reminded again that the grip angle of the P7 series is tailor made for fast and accurate shooting
Final impressions:
Although neither of these pistols will be a carry gun anytime soon (my refurb P7M8 fills that niche currently) they both seemed appropriate candidates. Both would need luminescent sights and the P7M8's feed ramp might need some polishing. The feed issues I experienced with the Starfire 95 grain and Gold Dot would probably ex them out of consideration as carry loads for these pistols. Also, the flash of the Hydra Shok would seem to disqualify it as well. The Pro Load fed consistently and seemed very controllable. It's also topped with a well designed bullet (Gold Dot HP). I think I might lean toward considering standard pressure 115 grain loads for these pistols based on what I've seen today. Federal's Hi Shok 115 grain would be an example of another load to consider along with the Pro Load. I've had good results with that round out of my other P7M8.
Sorry to be so long winded but I hope there is here that proved to be a little help to someone. I sure had a good time turning all that pretty ammo into noise and smoke. Getting to spend the afternoon handling two such beautiful pistols was icing on the cake.
Take care all.
I just returned from a trip to the range in which I conducted a very unscientific experiment.
The objective here was to familiarize myself with two new-to-my-collection pistols as well as to compare the performance of several defensive 9mm loads. I had a variety of ammunition of different weights and bullet designs sitting around. In the event, I chose five high quality commercial rounds and an FMJ load as a "control".
They were:
Federal 124 grain Hydra-Shok (20 rounds)
Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P (20 rounds)
Pro Load 115 grain Tactical Grade (20 rounds)
PMC 95 grain Starfire (20 rounds)
PMC 124 grain Starfire (50 rounds)
CCI 115 grain Blazer (200 rounds)
The two pistols used in these unscientific tests were:
1. NIB unfired Heckler and Koch P7M8. I recently purchased this to compliment my favorite refurb P7M8.
2. Walther P-5C. This was purchased a couple months back from the original owner. Not NIB, but VERY well cared for.
I should point out that I am MUCH more familiar with the P7M8 than the P-5C. I had put all of 30 rounds through the Walther prior to today's outing and upwards of 5000 rounds through my other P7s in the past year or so.
My concept was that I would use the Blazer to "break in" the pistols (the P7 in particular had never been fired) and confirm functioning. Then I would use the test loads in each pistol comparing perceived recoil, general accuracy (i.e. ability to repeatedly place shots COM), flash/report, and functional reliability. The plan was a full magazine (8 rounds in each case) of each load through each pistol with the remainder used in mixed magazine strings (more on that latter). I had no chronograph and fired off hand standing rather than from a rest. Target was a standard NRA B-3 "50 foot timed and rapid fire pistol target" placed 30 feet downrange from the firing line. I fired as quickly as I could gain/regain a sight picture. Magazines were loaded into the pistols with the slide locked back and the slide was released mechanically (not hand racked).
I started with the P7M8. I ran the Blazer through loading 5 rounds in each of two magazines. With the sights lined up on the center of the target, the pistol consistently grouped 2-3 inches high and an inch or two left of POA. This was interesting considering both of my refubs and my P7 PSP have come with POA/POI sights. Otherwise, performance was typically boring P7 material - perfect. Function was 100% and the ten round strings kept the pistol from heating too quickly. Still, after 100 rounds of Blazer, the P7M8 was definitely toasty. I put it down to cool and brought out the P5C.
I ran the P-5C through its 100 rounds of Blazer using the same process as with the P7M8. I noted that the stock plastic grips were significantly more comfortable than the beautiful wood grips which the previous owner had installed. POA was POI with the three dot sights. All shots were fired single action and the trigger had a brief but noticeable take up. I was highly impressed with the Walther. One could feel the smoothness of the mechanism. Function was 100% and a firm grip kept the shots going where I intended. Trigger reset distance was very short allowing fast follow up shots without slapping the trigger.
After the Blazer I started the Walther on 8 round strings of each of the defensive loads.
Feed reliability:
All except the Starfire 95 grain fed 100%. With the Starfire 95s, the first round of the magazine nose-dived into the feed ramp. I cleared the weapon and tried again. Same result. This time, I cleared the weapon and compared the first round to three others from the same box. After two close encounters with the ramp, the first round was set back into its case to a noticeable degree. I also noticed that the second round in the magazine had a clearly visible dent in the nickeled case. I decided to discard both rounds. The final six rounds in the magazine fed and fired perfectly.
Flash/report:
The only two loads with noticeable flash were the Hydra Shoks and the Starfire 124 grain. The Hydra Shoks in particular were quite bright even in the well lit indoor range. The Gold Dot +P was considerably louder than the others (I shoot with diaphragm ear plugs under Pro Ears).
Recoil:
Recoil was minimal with the Hydra Shocks and noticeable with all other loads. Both the Pro Load and Starfire 124 grain produced recoil that was very easy to "ride" to a fast recovery of front site on target. The Gold Dot +P load snapped much more than the others.
The P7M8 was much cooler now and I ran it through the same strings as the Walther.
Feed reliability:
All except the Gold Dot fed 100%. The last round in the magazine of Gold Dots caught on the feed ramp. This was not a nose dive (where the round fails to angle up the ramp). The cartridge had made it half way up the feed ramp and lodged there. Tap rack bang did not clear the jam. I ejected the magazine, cleared the pistol and examined the cartridge along with three others from the same box. The bullet on the round in question was noticeably set back into its case. I discarded the round.
Flash/report:
Flash was minimal with all rounds except the Hydra Shok. The Gold Dot +P was again much louder than the others.
Recoil:
The Hydra Shoks and Starfire 95 grain produced minimal felt recoil. The Pro Load and Starfire 124 grain both gave some (the Pro Load's jump, however, seemed very easy to recover from quickly). The recoil of the Gold Dot seemed to be sufficient to unseat the pistol in my grip without a very tight hold.
Mixed magazine tests:
The idea here was to mix differing loads in given magazines to see if functioning changed. I ran two mixed magazines through each pistol. The first magazine was loaded in a function specific manner and the second was loaded to see if the difference in felt recoil among differing loads was noticeable.
P7M8:
I loaded the first magazine in the following order: Starfire 95 grain, Gold Dot +P, Starfire 124 grain, Hydra Shok, Pro Load. I felt the Starfire's blunt nose would provide the most obvious feed challenge and the Gold Dot had given the only previous stoppage in the P7M8. Thus they were first. I fired the entire magazine without a stoppage. I did notice the recoil of the Gold Dot.
The second magazine was loaded in what I thought was an ascending order of recoil intensity: Hydra Shok, Pro Load, Starfire 95 grain, Starfire 124 grain, Gold Dot. Same results as the first magazine. Function was 100%. The Gold Dot was a kicker and the Hydra Shok a *****cat.
P-5C:
First magazine was: Starfire 95 grain, Starfire 124 grain, Gold Dot, Pro Load, Hydra Shok. The first two rounds fired normally. As the pistol loaded the third round (Gold Dot), it seemed to jam with the slide open. I began to instinctively rotate the pistol to the left in order to look into the chamber (muzzle was still pointed safely on target). This was silly as the Walther ejects to the left and thus the ejection port is on the opposite side from most other pistols. As I was trying to look, the slide snapped fully into battery. It was almost as if there had been a "hesitation" rather than a true stoppage. I ejected the magazine and attempted to clear the pistol. The slide would not retract. I checked that the magazine was out, and tried to retract the slide again. It still would not move. I decocked the pistol and tried a third time. No luck. I decided to attempt to fire the round since I could not get it to manually eject. With the magazine still out, I fired the pistol in double action mode. I then inspected the chamber area, ejector, muzzle, and rails and saw nothing out of the ordinary. During this entire process, I was concerned (both for the state of my "new" Walther and the condition of the live round in the chamber) and moved slowly and carefully keeping muzzle discipline foremost in my mind. With the pistol clear, I reinserted the magazine and fired the rest of the rounds without a problem.
The Second magazine through the Walther was a repeat of the second magazine through the P7M8. Results were also the same.
At this point, all I had left was 30 rounds of the Gold Dot +P. I decided to use them in my P7M8 for some faster drills. I had forgotten my homemade COM targets and was out of B-3s. I improvised an 8 inch square (an easier to draw version of the IDPA A-zone circle) and set it to 20 feet. Loading 6 rounds in each of 5 magazines, I began coming up from an imaginary right side holster. First magazine was draw with a single shot onto the target. Even with the much hotter Gold Dots, the POI was very similar to what I had seen with the Blazers. I adjusted and was gratified to see that I could still get the rounds where I wanted them. Second magazine was draw and controlled pair. The last of the six rounds gave an identical jam to what I had experienced earlier with the round sticking halfway up the ramp (this was with a different magazine than the first jam). I cleared it and discarded the round. Final four magazines were accelerating hammers. Although the kick from quick pairs of the Gold Dots was significant and the rapid firing heated the gun quickly, I was getting nicely spaced pairs of holes in my improvised COM. I was reminded again that the grip angle of the P7 series is tailor made for fast and accurate shooting
Final impressions:
Although neither of these pistols will be a carry gun anytime soon (my refurb P7M8 fills that niche currently) they both seemed appropriate candidates. Both would need luminescent sights and the P7M8's feed ramp might need some polishing. The feed issues I experienced with the Starfire 95 grain and Gold Dot would probably ex them out of consideration as carry loads for these pistols. Also, the flash of the Hydra Shok would seem to disqualify it as well. The Pro Load fed consistently and seemed very controllable. It's also topped with a well designed bullet (Gold Dot HP). I think I might lean toward considering standard pressure 115 grain loads for these pistols based on what I've seen today. Federal's Hi Shok 115 grain would be an example of another load to consider along with the Pro Load. I've had good results with that round out of my other P7M8.
Sorry to be so long winded but I hope there is here that proved to be a little help to someone. I sure had a good time turning all that pretty ammo into noise and smoke. Getting to spend the afternoon handling two such beautiful pistols was icing on the cake.
Take care all.