questions about no4 mk1 Enfield

[timgd]

Bought on impulse I don't know more than the basics about Enfields. Most important is the bolt it dose not match the S/N on the rest of the rifle. It looks to be in good shape but I'm concerned about head space. There are no numbers on the bolt head to indicate size, the only marking is on the top surface of the head. I can't tell if its an S or a 5. I don't plan on buying more Enfields so I hate to spend money on head space gauges. The other Q. is about the stock finnish and wood. The stock is a dark purple color so dark its almost black. I can't tell what type of wood was used and can barely see the grain. What is the right oil to use? The rifle was produced at Maltby in 1943.
Thanks for your help
Tim

 

[SIGSHR]

While we wait for the more knowledheable to respond, I note that many Lee-Enfields are mixmasters, since their ordnance people-like ours-were concerned solely with getting the rifle back in service. In addition the UK relied more heavily on sub-contractors for small parts, hence "correct" for a No. 4 Mk I can range from the fairly elaborate and precise pre-war rear sight to the later simple "L" flip-up. As always, Ian Skennerton's books are a must.

 

[wogpotter]

First we need to figure out which Lee-Enfield you have! The "numbered bolt heads" were introduced with the No4 Mk1, the earlier No1/SMLE's did not have bolt heads numbered.

Does it say something like "No4Mk1" on it anywhere? Try the wrist, or the receivers left flat face. How about a crown, date or letter series like "ShTLE", or something similar.

How does the bolt head stay aligned with the receiver's rails? From the inside, or by hanging over & from the outside? Where is the rear sight, part way down the barrel or t the rear of the receiver?
(That will tell us if it's a No1 or a No4).

Might the "5" actually be a squared off "S"? If so its a Savage made rifle, probably a No4 Mk1, or No4Mk1* as Savage didn't ever make any No1 rifles.

Now for the bad news. There is exactly one & one only dependable method of determining headspace. To use a head space gauge. Every other method is an approximation at best. It non-matching bolt may be problematic as well, there is more than just headspace involved in fitting an Enfield bot to a specific receiver. You should probably have a qualified smith check both headspace & bolt lug engagement for the sake of safety.

 

[CowTowner]

The stock is a dark purple color so dark its almost black.

Does the wood feel sticky? Could be cosmoline or other petroleum based preservative. Cleaning that off has been discussed in lots of threads and there are many methods. The search feature is your friend here.
Typically, the No4Mk1 was shipped with either walnut or beech stocks. neither should be that dark. Welcome to the world of C&R rifles. You may want to look around in the Curios and Relics section. Lots of good stuff there.

 

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Enfield

Wogpotter
It is clearly a No4 Mk1 it has all the right markings on the wrist and is also marked on the left side of the receiver just forward of the stripper clip bridge. As for the S/5 the only place it is stamped is on the flat surface of the main part of the bolt head, nowhere else. Also that is the only mark on the bolt head.
The bolt locking lugs and mating surfaces are undamaged and the lockup is solid.My main concern was the lack of size mark or any type of acceptance marks. I guess I will have to spring for a field gauge at the very least since I don't know anyone who shoots Enfields to borrow gauges from.
Thanks for your help.
Tim

 

[CowTowner]

If you find you need to change the bolt head, please let us know. They are numbered 0 - 3. 0 being the shortest. I'm pretty sure I have at least one spare of each laying around somewhere.

 

[Jim Watson]

You could insert a cartridge and pull the trigger. With a finger or a string depending on how froggy you feel.
The "headspace" on a .303 is simply the rim space; the chambers are pretty sloppy anyhow. Do you plan to handload for it or will it be a search for remaining surplus?

 

[wogpotter]

From what you say not only is the bolt mis-matched to the body, the head is mis-matched to the bolt as well.
You probably have a Savage-made head on a non Savage bolt that does not match the Maltby receiver.

The bolt locking lugs and mating surfaces are undamaged and the lockup is solid.

Not trying to be argumentative, but how do you know the lockup is distributed evenly between the 2 bolt lugs? Just "It feels tight" can't tell how much of which lug(s) are doing the work.

Not knowing the bolt head number is more irritating than problematic. Not having the crossed seaxes of passing proof is a problem. Just measure from the bolt face to the rear of the bolt head collar. Calculate the headspace difference between what you have & what you need & get a head that much different if its needed. Without a proof mark I'd replace it anyway as there's no way to tell its is actually proofed.

 

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Enfield

Cowtowner
The stock was clean and dry with no cosmolene. It still had preservative under the wood and in the nooks and crannys. There seemed to be what looked like sand and grit under the wood, made me wonder where it had spent the last 60 yrs. As for mil surp rifles I bought my 1st one over 50 yrs ago.I just don't have any exp. with Enfields.
Jim I have used that method in the past but I have gotten more cautious in my old age. I have about 350 rds of surplus after that gos I will reload. Got a set of dies yesterday.
Wogpotter the mismatched bolt and lack of acceptance marks is the main reason I started asking questions.
Tim

 

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Enfield

SIGSHR
I am not to worried about what gov. ordnance people might have done but I read something on another forum about importers just grabbing parts from a pile and slapping them together and sending them out the door.
Its like I said I have gotten more cautious in my old age.
Tim
PS that forum Is the one you mentioned in your PM

 

[wogpotter]

Wogpotter the mismatched bolt and lack of acceptance marks is the main reason I started asking questions.

& also the reason I'm trying to explain what is involved to be safe with them.
The design is from the late 19th century. "Drop in parts" were unheard of & some custom fitting was the norm.

Mismatching.
Armorers were told specifically as part of the reassembly check to match serialized parts. Unfortunately importers didn't give a hoot & just flung everything together.

Things to check with a mis-matched bolt.

1: BOTH lugs are engaging equally & evenly.
2: Bolt head rotation/over rotation.
3: Headspace.

Its done in this order because work to make both lugs engage evenly, or changing bolt heads for correct over rotation will change headspace.

 

[P71pilot]

If you are worried about the headspace, either buy a cheap set of no/go gauges or take the gun to a smith who has a set for .303 british. I use to have a no4 mk1 and loved it, slickest action I've ever felt, but ammo was too expensive I sold the rifle for a 100 dollar profit and haven't looked back. I have a k31 now I CAN get ammo for and it won't cost me a weeks worth of gas for my car

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...importers just grabbing parts from a pile and slapping them together..." Yep. Century Arms, among others, assembled thousands of Lee-Enfields out of parts bins with zero QC.
However, a non-matching bolt does not automatically mean the headspace is bad. It just means you must check it. The bolt head may have been put on by somebody who knew what he was doing and used the headspace gauges or it may not have been.
You can rent head space gauges for not ridiculous prices. So you don't have to buy 'em. A smithy who doesn't have 'em, will buy 'em and charge you for them without giving 'em to you. They're not horribly expensive anyway. You need a No-Go and a Field. There should be a number on the side.
You'll want to slug the barrel too. The barrels can measure from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Current ammo and reloading bullets are .311" or .312". Not so good in a .313" + barrel. Just an accuracy issue though. Nothing to do with safety.
"...either walnut or beech stocks..." Or birch or maple.