Question on the "8 kids/day" thing
- Thread starter WyldOne
- Start date
it depends on how you define children
is a 17 year old crack dealer shooting at a police officer a child?
Should his darwin moment be lumped in with innocent kids?
heres the Maryland numbers:
>>>>>>>>>
1981 - 1998, Maryland
Unintentional Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 19
ICD-9 Codes: E922
Age Group--# of Deaths-------Population***-----Crude Rate
00-04--------------2*--------------6,133,439-------------0.03*
05-09--------------3*--------------5,828,206-------------0.05*
10-14-------------10*-------------5,767,122--------------0.17*
15-19-------------21-------------6,064,239-------------0.35
Total-------------36-------------23,793,006-------------0.15
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1981 - 1998, Maryland
Homicide Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 19
ICD-9 Codes: E965.0-.4
Age Group--# of Deaths-------Population***-----Crude Rate
00-04-------------31--------------6,133,439--------------0.51
05-09------------16*--------------5,828,206--------------0.27*
10-14-------------87-------------5,767,122---------------1.51
15-19-------------1,049-------------6,064,239-------------17.30
Total-------------1,183-------------23,793,006-------------4.97
lets look at that age 15-19
Race__#Deaths__Population***__Crude Rate
White____95_____4,050,418______2.35
Black____939____1,800,503______52.15
Am Indian__4*_____19,547_______20.46*
Asian_____11*____193,771_______5.67*
Total____1,049____6,064,239_____17.30
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1981 - 1998, Maryland
Suicide Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 19
ICD-9 Codes: E955.0-.4
Age Group--# of Deaths-------Population***-----Crude Rate
00-04--------------0*-------------6,133,439--------------0.00*
05-09--------------0*--------------5,828,206-------------0.00*
10-14--------------30-------------5,767,122--------------0.52
Total---------------30--------------17,728,767-----------0.17
15-19---------------288---------------6,064,239---------------4.75
Total---------------318---------------23,793,006---------------1.34
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1981 - 1998, Maryland
Unintentional Drowning/submersion Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 19
ICD-9 Codes: E830, E832, E910
Age Group--# of Deaths-------Population***-----Crude Rate
00-04-----------129--------------6,133,439---------------2.10
05-09-------------57-------------5,828,206----------------0.98
10-14------------70--------------5,767,122----------------1.21
15-19------------133------------6,064,239------------2.19
Total------------389------------23,793,006------------1.63
>>>>>>>>
it seems to me that if you really want to significantly effect the number of accidental deaths of "children" you might want to look at the significant causes of accidental death.
is a 17 year old crack dealer shooting at a police officer a child?
Should his darwin moment be lumped in with innocent kids?
heres the Maryland numbers:
>>>>>>>>>
1981 - 1998, Maryland
Unintentional Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 19
ICD-9 Codes: E922
Age Group--# of Deaths-------Population***-----Crude Rate
00-04--------------2*--------------6,133,439-------------0.03*
05-09--------------3*--------------5,828,206-------------0.05*
10-14-------------10*-------------5,767,122--------------0.17*
15-19-------------21-------------6,064,239-------------0.35
Total-------------36-------------23,793,006-------------0.15
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1981 - 1998, Maryland
Homicide Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 19
ICD-9 Codes: E965.0-.4
Age Group--# of Deaths-------Population***-----Crude Rate
00-04-------------31--------------6,133,439--------------0.51
05-09------------16*--------------5,828,206--------------0.27*
10-14-------------87-------------5,767,122---------------1.51
15-19-------------1,049-------------6,064,239-------------17.30
Total-------------1,183-------------23,793,006-------------4.97
lets look at that age 15-19
Race__#Deaths__Population***__Crude Rate
White____95_____4,050,418______2.35
Black____939____1,800,503______52.15
Am Indian__4*_____19,547_______20.46*
Asian_____11*____193,771_______5.67*
Total____1,049____6,064,239_____17.30
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1981 - 1998, Maryland
Suicide Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 19
ICD-9 Codes: E955.0-.4
Age Group--# of Deaths-------Population***-----Crude Rate
00-04--------------0*-------------6,133,439--------------0.00*
05-09--------------0*--------------5,828,206-------------0.00*
10-14--------------30-------------5,767,122--------------0.52
Total---------------30--------------17,728,767-----------0.17
15-19---------------288---------------6,064,239---------------4.75
Total---------------318---------------23,793,006---------------1.34
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1981 - 1998, Maryland
Unintentional Drowning/submersion Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 19
ICD-9 Codes: E830, E832, E910
Age Group--# of Deaths-------Population***-----Crude Rate
00-04-----------129--------------6,133,439---------------2.10
05-09-------------57-------------5,828,206----------------0.98
10-14------------70--------------5,767,122----------------1.21
15-19------------133------------6,064,239------------2.19
Total------------389------------23,793,006------------1.63
>>>>>>>>
it seems to me that if you really want to significantly effect the number of accidental deaths of "children" you might want to look at the significant causes of accidental death.
Nationally, the source for mortality statistics is the Centers for Disease Controll and Prevention, an agency of the federal government.
This link:
http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate.html
will take you to the CDC's mortality rate search engine. Type in whatever paramenters you're looking for, and it will return the statistics. Then when someone asks you where you got your info, and stick it to 'em by saying you researched the data personally. Then ask them where their info is from, [sneer]"the news??"[/sneer]
This link:
http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate.html
will take you to the CDC's mortality rate search engine. Type in whatever paramenters you're looking for, and it will return the statistics. Then when someone asks you where you got your info, and stick it to 'em by saying you researched the data personally. Then ask them where their info is from, [sneer]"the news??"[/sneer]
Code:
The Center to
Disease Control (CDC) has a web-site which will return "Injury
Mortality Reports" for all categories they keep track of. This
includes the mechanism (firearms, in this case), and the manner or
intent of the action. The results can also be broken out by age
group.
Here are the results for all firearms-related deaths, for...
everyone 15 or younger: 972 total ("2.66 / day")
everyone 17 or younger: 2284 ("6.25 / day")
everyone 18 or younger: 3238 ("8.87 / day")
everyone 19 or younger: 4223 ("11.57 / day")
everyone 20 or younger: 5207 ("14.26 / day")
Now the only way you can truthfully get to the "12 a day" number is
if you consider someone who is 19 years old to be a "child." This
is gross misrepresentation. Since someone 18 years old is
considered an adult, you should be using the number for people 17
and under: 2284, or 6.2 per day. Now this rate is still clearly
disturbing, but notice how the overall rate increases rapidly as the
age group increases. The firearms-related mortality rate for 16 and
17 year-olds is more than the total for everyone 15 and under!
Now compare that to the UNINTENTIONAL, ACCIDENTAL numbers. For 17
year-olds or younger, only 247 die per year, and for 20 year-olds or
younger, it's only 339. This accidental death rate is so low as to
be negligible: it's a rate of 0.49 PER 100,000, or 49 per 10
million.
Compare 5207 total firearms deaths to 339 accidental deaths. The
problem is crime. The overall mortality rate eclipses the
accidental rate.
What are these non-accidents? The majority is crime. The rest are
suicide and legal intervention (ie, a justified police shooting).
from
[url]http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate.html[/url]I love this "___ kids/day" statistic because it keeps getting ratcheted down.
Just a couple years ago all the gun grabbers were spouting the "13 kids/day". Then people started calling their bluff and discovering that this figure included 24 year olds or some such nonsense. Then it became 12, 11, 9 (not sure what happened to 10), and now it seems to be 8.
Point is, it all depends on how you frame the statement. When somebody quotes this figure, ask them what that includes (homicides, suicides, accidents) and ask them what age group that includes. Chances are they won't know. But you will know because you've looked up the actual statistics.
Yeah, a certain number of actual kids are killed by firearms every year, but nowhere near the number that gets quoted in the media and by the Brady Center for Lies and Misinformation.
Just a couple years ago all the gun grabbers were spouting the "13 kids/day". Then people started calling their bluff and discovering that this figure included 24 year olds or some such nonsense. Then it became 12, 11, 9 (not sure what happened to 10), and now it seems to be 8.
Point is, it all depends on how you frame the statement. When somebody quotes this figure, ask them what that includes (homicides, suicides, accidents) and ask them what age group that includes. Chances are they won't know. But you will know because you've looked up the actual statistics.
Yeah, a certain number of actual kids are killed by firearms every year, but nowhere near the number that gets quoted in the media and by the Brady Center for Lies and Misinformation.
spacemanspiff
New member
the figures i calculated from 2000, based on the report available from the CDC is as follows:
3,012 of the firearm related deaths occurred to victim’s age 0-19. An average of 8.332 in that age group each day died from firearms.
229 of those were accidental or undetermined intent. Average of .627 each day.
1,007 of those were suicides. Average 2.758 each day.
1,776 of those were homicides. Average 4.865 each day.
30 of those were legal intervention. Average .082 each day.
take away the suicides and legal intervention, and the number drops to 1,975. or about 5.410 a day from homicides and accidents.
3,012 of the firearm related deaths occurred to victim’s age 0-19. An average of 8.332 in that age group each day died from firearms.
229 of those were accidental or undetermined intent. Average of .627 each day.
1,007 of those were suicides. Average 2.758 each day.
1,776 of those were homicides. Average 4.865 each day.
30 of those were legal intervention. Average .082 each day.
take away the suicides and legal intervention, and the number drops to 1,975. or about 5.410 a day from homicides and accidents.
Arguing this statistic can be tricky, though. It's hard to stand there and say "See, guns aren't bad...they only kill 5 kids a day..." Doesn't play really well to an audience of mush-heads.
Use it to point out that gun control orgs, including the media parrots, lie on a regular basis, and we can prove it. "If their claims are valid, why do they have to lie?" You don't even have to actually make the case for guns, just destroy their case against them.
Use it to point out that gun control orgs, including the media parrots, lie on a regular basis, and we can prove it. "If their claims are valid, why do they have to lie?" You don't even have to actually make the case for guns, just destroy their case against them.
Wyldone.
Good website for getting death/injury stats yourself: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars (edited to fix link)
Play around with the engines; they're pretty easy to use, though they've got some complexity built in (which can be handy).
Here's the latest available U.S. stats (1999) from the fatal injuries engine (the 2000 stats are out, but not in the engine; anyone got a link to the pdf?)
Gun deaths 1999, United States
Age
0-10 = 164 or 0.45/day
0-11 = 190 or 0.52/day
0-12 = 234 or 0.64/day
0-13 = 319 or 0.87/day
0-14 = 489 or 1.34/day
0-15 = 737 or 2.01/day
0-16 = 1,184 or 3.24/day
0-17 = 1,776 or 4.87/day
0-18 = 2,542 or 6.96/day
0-19 = 3,385 or 9.27/day
It also helps to show them that the problem has improved dramatically -- that we are stemming the tide without more gun control, but these things take time
Ages 0-14
1993 = 957 or rate of 1.69 per 100,000
1994 = 872 or rate of 1.53 per 100,000
1995 = 853 or rate of 1.48 per 100,000
1996 = 693 or rate of 1.20 per 100,000
1997 = 630 or rate of 1.09 per 100,000
1998 = 612 or rate of 1.05 per 100,000
1999 = 489 or rate of 0.84 per 100,000
result = 50.30% decline in gun deaths 1993 to 1999, and it's continued.
(you have to look at rates when comparing years, not raw numbers due to the differences in population)
Ages 0-19
1993 = 5,751 or rate of 7.77 per 100,000
1994 = 5,833 or rate of 7.79 per 100,000
1995 = 5,285 or rate of 6.98 per 100,000
1996 = 4,643 or rate of 6.07 per 100,000
1997 = 4,223 or rate of 5.48 per 100,000
1998 = 3,792 or rate of 4.88 per 100,000
1999 = 3,385 or rate of 4.33 per 100,000
result = 44.27% decline
Good website for getting death/injury stats yourself: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars (edited to fix link)
Play around with the engines; they're pretty easy to use, though they've got some complexity built in (which can be handy).
Here's the latest available U.S. stats (1999) from the fatal injuries engine (the 2000 stats are out, but not in the engine; anyone got a link to the pdf?)
Gun deaths 1999, United States
Age
0-10 = 164 or 0.45/day
0-11 = 190 or 0.52/day
0-12 = 234 or 0.64/day
0-13 = 319 or 0.87/day
0-14 = 489 or 1.34/day
0-15 = 737 or 2.01/day
0-16 = 1,184 or 3.24/day
0-17 = 1,776 or 4.87/day
0-18 = 2,542 or 6.96/day
0-19 = 3,385 or 9.27/day
It also helps to show them that the problem has improved dramatically -- that we are stemming the tide without more gun control, but these things take time
Ages 0-14
1993 = 957 or rate of 1.69 per 100,000
1994 = 872 or rate of 1.53 per 100,000
1995 = 853 or rate of 1.48 per 100,000
1996 = 693 or rate of 1.20 per 100,000
1997 = 630 or rate of 1.09 per 100,000
1998 = 612 or rate of 1.05 per 100,000
1999 = 489 or rate of 0.84 per 100,000
result = 50.30% decline in gun deaths 1993 to 1999, and it's continued.
(you have to look at rates when comparing years, not raw numbers due to the differences in population)
Ages 0-19
1993 = 5,751 or rate of 7.77 per 100,000
1994 = 5,833 or rate of 7.79 per 100,000
1995 = 5,285 or rate of 6.98 per 100,000
1996 = 4,643 or rate of 6.07 per 100,000
1997 = 4,223 or rate of 5.48 per 100,000
1998 = 3,792 or rate of 4.88 per 100,000
1999 = 3,385 or rate of 4.33 per 100,000
result = 44.27% decline
Last edited:
Smithz's post sums it up well.
The problem is CRIME not the guns. The incidents of actual unintentional accidents are lower than accidents with many household items that are considered "safe".
According to my quick searches, people age 0-19 are slightly more likely to have an unintentional fall and far more likely to drown accidentally than to have a firearms related accident.
Crime is the real issue here.
The problem is CRIME not the guns. The incidents of actual unintentional accidents are lower than accidents with many household items that are considered "safe".
According to my quick searches, people age 0-19 are slightly more likely to have an unintentional fall and far more likely to drown accidentally than to have a firearms related accident.
Crime is the real issue here.
Boing said:
Great thought. They will paint you as some kind of monster if you try to give them the correct number. They would be unhappy with only 1 kid per day. And guess what? SO ARE WE.
Boing said point out that they are telling a lie. This sounds effective to me.
You could also point out the number of kid deaths related to swimming pools or booze (which is also illegal for children). IIRC these numbers are way higher than firearms.
Great thought. They will paint you as some kind of monster if you try to give them the correct number. They would be unhappy with only 1 kid per day. And guess what? SO ARE WE.
Boing said point out that they are telling a lie. This sounds effective to me.
You could also point out the number of kid deaths related to swimming pools or booze (which is also illegal for children). IIRC these numbers are way higher than firearms.
Scaramanga
New member
Wyldone: Here are the numbers for 2000.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/02facts/final2000.htm
Use the Deaths: Final Data pdf. It has firearm mortality including accidents, homicide and suicide for all age groups.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/02facts/final2000.htm
Use the Deaths: Final Data pdf. It has firearm mortality including accidents, homicide and suicide for all age groups.
Lord Grey Boots
New member
Ask them for the legal or statistical definition of "kid".
Do they mean "Child" 0-14
Young Adult 15-17
Or Adult, 18 and up??
Do they mean "Child" 0-14
Young Adult 15-17
Or Adult, 18 and up??
Apple a Day
New member
Check out the FBIs website. Go to the section on the Annual Uniform Crime Report and check the numbers (.pdf file)
The way they break up the categories, if you look at 0-14 year olds [the next category includes adults] you end up with around 0.2 "kids" per day last time I ran the numbers.
Quite a difference.
The way they break up the categories, if you look at 0-14 year olds [the next category includes adults] you end up with around 0.2 "kids" per day last time I ran the numbers.
Quite a difference.