Question on neck lube for bullet seating?

jetinteriorguy

New member
I've been having some issues with some bullets being deformed when seating due to the difference in bullet shape versus seating stem. For the most part I've worked this out to my satisfaction, but one of the thoughts I've had is if lubing the inside of the necks would be a good idea. If so, what type of lubes wouldn't affect the powder, and what affect would this have on bullet tension. Also would this work better with or without crimping, and would it make much differences between using in an AR or a bolt gun. This is for bottleneck rifle cases. Interested in both opinions and experiences. Thanks.
 

lordmorgul

New member
I've been having some issues with some bullets being deformed when seating due to the difference in bullet shape versus seating stem. For the most part I've worked this out to my satisfaction, but one of the thoughts I've had is if lubing the inside of the necks would be a good idea. If so, what type of lubes wouldn't affect the powder, and what affect would this have on bullet tension. Also would this work better with or without crimping, and would it make much differences between using in an AR or a bolt gun. This is for bottleneck rifle cases. Interested in both opinions and experiences. Thanks.



IF you wanted to do this, after careful consideration and initial trials... the graphite powder Imperial Neck lube with ceramic applicator beads is an ideal choice. But your effective neck tension on the bullets will be greatly reduced by adding lubricity to the surfaces even if the same press fit tension exists, likely require more aggressive crimping unless you will single load them all, and wear on the case mouths as a result. For single loaded match ammo? Probably would be fine (uncrimped) just try and see how the velocity works out, I’m pretty sure the bullet moving earlier and under less pressure will have lower velocity with lower internal pressure. I don’t crimp my single loaded 75 gr ELD 5.56 match for 600 yard slow fire, but I do lightly crimp my 75 gr OTM 5.56 for slow or rapid fire (both being magazine fed).

I’ve had some bullets take a little bit of scraping off of the copper jacket or plating and thought about this too as I do have and use that imperial neck lube already, but I’m pretty sure it would be better for case lifespan to just chamfer the mouth opening more before seating and not have to crimp them so hard.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!
 

lordmorgul

New member
What do you mean by deformed though? Small s-blend deflection and mark on the plating?

There is no doubt a small dent in the ogive would change the BC but maybe not so much it matters to results or your Ballistic calculator?


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!
 
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jetinteriorguy

New member
Initially on some bullets it was pretty much putting a pretty good circumferential dent in the bullets. Because this was inconsistent in nature my seating depth CBTO had quite a variance, as much as .013". I've remedied this, but mostly just curious about lubing as a possible remedy since it's one of the things I had considered.
 

T. O'Heir

New member
"...difference in bullet shape versus seating stem..." That's on the point only. The point makes no difference for accuracy. Only the base of the bullet matters. Bashing the 8 rounds with an SP in a Garand clip on the butt plate deforms the point, but does nothing to alter the accuracy.
However, bottle necked rifle cases need to be chamfered and deburred on the case mouth. That takes the place of the flare done to a handgun case for seating.
"...dent in the ogive..." Has nothing whatever to do with the BC. Ballistics Coefficient is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. There's a physics formula. BC = Sectional density/ Coefficient of form. The latter is derived by 6 methods and applied differently depending on the trajectory models used.
 

NoSecondBest

New member
Many die sets have different seating stems for different bullets. Some companies can provide you with a different stem if you call them. It may be for a different caliber, but as long as it fits the bullet tip it won't make a great deal of difference. As pointed out above, getting the case mouth prepped correctly by chamferring and deburring will make all the difference in the world. Don't be shy about using the chamferring tool. You need a slight angle chamferred onto the case mouth to allow the bullet to enter the case mouth without encountering extreme resistance from a rough case mouth. It doesn't take much, but it has to be there. Powdered graphite makes a good lube if you're lubing the case mouth only. Just dip the mouth in the graphite before seating the bullet. It prepped properly, even the graphite isn't necessary.
 

44 AMP

Staff
I've been having some issues with some bullets being deformed when seating due to the difference in bullet shape versus seating stem.

If the bullet tip is deformed during seating, you aren't using the right seating stem for that bullet.

Most of the time, it won't matter other than looks, but the "right" seating stem won't deform the bullet.

I don't think lubing the inside of the case neck to seat the bullet "easier" will get you what you want, and could give you other problems.

you didn't mention what specific round(s) and bullets you're having issues with, so I can't give you any specific answers. sorry.
 

RC20

New member
What bullets in what cartridge? Dies?

Pistol requires a flare (which the M die will do and was indeed designed for though I don't use the flare as I am into rifle.

Rilfe : if you chamfer it helps a lot (and the Trim Trimmers are the way to get a good one)

Most rifle are boat tail and easier, but I have reloaded flat base short 125 gr bullet in 06 and they do fine with the chamfer as well.

Trim Trimmers: I have used Little Crow WFT, Gerard Tri (and motorized) and Tme it II>

Gerard Trim Trimmer is the best one off, Trim it II for odd ball caliber *7.56 Swiss) or the Gerard base motorized unit for a lot of different calibers (more than 4)

T
he use of a Lyman "M" die is recommended.

I used it in rifle cases and removed the sizer plug from the die, I don't go far enough to use the flare as I don't find its needed in rifle.

Likely use it in pistol if I get back to that.
 

jetinteriorguy

New member
I do a very extensive case prep, including chamfering and deburring. As I stated I've solved the issue of deforming the bullets, I'm just interested in the affects of lubing the necks before seating. I don't use any lube now, but am curious if there is any good reason to consider it. As far as what I'd be using it in, I shoot .223 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor in an AR platform, and 6.5 Creedmoor in a Savage 12FV bolt action.
 

std7mag

New member
Really, the only cartridge i do it with is my 284 Win.
With the RCBS neck sizing die, the neck is on the small diameter side.
You can see the neck expand if i stop short while seating.

Forget ever removing the bullet, except by pulling the trigger!
You know what i mean! ;)

I had thought to run my 7mm-08AI chamber reamer in the die to open up the neck area. But then remembered it is a chamber reamer, not a die reamer. Would open up too much.
 

lordmorgul

New member
"...difference in bullet shape versus seating stem..." That's on the point only. The point makes no difference for accuracy. Only the base of the bullet matters. Bashing the 8 rounds with an SP in a Garand clip on the butt plate deforms the point, but does nothing to alter the accuracy.
However, bottle necked rifle cases need to be chamfered and deburred on the case mouth. That takes the place of the flare done to a handgun case for seating.
"...dent in the ogive..." Has nothing whatever to do with the BC. Ballistics Coefficient is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. There's a physics formula. BC = Sectional density/ Coefficient of form. The latter is derived by 6 methods and applied differently depending on the trajectory models used.


Ok really not poking fun or trying to start an argument, and I’ve appreciated some good posts from you, but... The first and second statements here are both factually incorrect and generalizations; while the effects of both are small compared to other controllable variables what you said just is not true.

1) an off-center bullet tip while spinning at speed will increase the bullet’s susceptibility to drag by creating turbulent flow rather than laminar flow near the ogive with shallower boundary layers and increasing susceptibility to wind drift. In that respect it affects accuracy even if fired on a perfectly calm day with no change in atmosphere between you and the target due to turbulence and your calculated to actual trajectory will have greater variation than if the bullet tip was perfect. One bullet flight and the next will vary, accuracy is a measure of ability to predict flight correctly each time. Consistency is a measure of ability to repeatedly be accurate. Does it matter? Maybe, probably not, depends how well larger variables are managed. But to say it has “no difference” is factually incorrect. Bashing in tips may have resulted in accuracy change too small for you to measure but it is impossible for it to not change (I’ll admit that is an interesting observation from a test if just that).

2) the ogive being different from an indentation compared to the reference bullet shape most certainly does change the true/effective bullet efficiency while your calculated/approximated value based on a reference shape (B.C) will now be more wrong than it was. B.C. itself is a derived parameter which we (for simplicity) use an approximation by one of the reference shapes for which an empirically known value exists but your bullet will never be exactly that so we have a relative approximation from known reference to our bullet; when your bullet is no longer what it was your relative approximation cannot still be the same. The reference coefficients are dependent on the rate at which the diameter expands (ogive) as well as the base shape and length which is why a reference exists for G1 and G6 which have only a difference in length and ogive radius. You can create a G6 variant just by changing the radius and calculate that if you want to, there are an infinite number of reference models; ballistics calculators may have 9 or more of them. The ogive change by the indentation and bullet tip concentricity may result in increased susceptibility to drag if there is no longer body of revolution (perfect symmetry) on which to base the empirical calculation. Turbulence may not occur but maybe just changed depth of boundary layer for a subtle/smooth indent. Again, maybe doesn’t get into the noticeable but also not “nothing whatsoever to do”.

Avoid anything irregular if possible. Bent bullet tips are avoidable as are mangled bases.



Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!
 
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