Question on Autoloading rifles

[desert.bunny]

I just bought a Rem Model-4 30.06 and was reading (Lee handbook) that hand loads may not load properly. Can anyone offer their views on this?

I think it had to do with the brass lengthening over time. I'd like to avoid t his pitfall but I'm not very sure on if this even happens.

Any insight is appreciated.

 

[Crazy88Fingers]

It's probably just a disclaimer relieving them of responsibility if your handloads don't work right.

A large piece of machinery at an old job once warned against standing near the driveshaft, since you might get tangled around it like Gumby. At least, that's what I gathered from the illustration.

 

[briandg]

Factory loads are sized to a minimum dimension specification, a rifle's chamber is sized to accept factory loads, and loads slightly out of spec. Reloaded ammunition is NOT SAAMI spec, and therefore, may not be exactly the size that will fit in a chamber designed for SAAMI spec ammo.

An autoloader has only a relatively weak return spring to force the shell into the chamber, and if it doesn't fit the chamber and the bolt does not fully seat, THAT RIFLE COULD BE DESTROYED AND THE SHOOTER KILLED WHEN THE CARTRIDGE FIRES. in light of that, self loading rifles usually have mechanical disconnects that will not allow firing unless the bolt is fully engaged.

Short version.

Reloads are not guaranteed to fit a chamber. Something too large or too small for the chamber may cause the rifle to not work. It may choose to not work by having a case head rupture or separation because of excessive headspace or open breech.

Reload if you want. Use common sense and reloading principles. Unless remington specifically states no reloads in an official document and justifies it, or you can find positive information, I would say that you can reload.

 

[wogpotter]

I've been safely & successfully reloading for a gas operated self loader for years with zero problems.

There are a few techniques to apply for self-loaders that differ from bolt/lever/pump guns, but it's far from difficult.

Always seat primers below flush.
This prevents slam-fires from the rapid reloading sequence.

Always full-length resize.
You might need "small base dies" for this to reduce case dimensions to the max because of the reasons stated earlier. Try regular first though not all self-loaders need them.

Religiously trim to length.
Self loaders are tougher on brass so case stretch is to be watched for.

Crimp the bullets.
Again the fast & heavy action demands this.

Other than that have at it in safety.

 

[tahunua001]

the human arm is not the most precise and consistent device in the world. no two bullets are going to be seated the same depth into a casing when you are hand loading. in a magazine of 4 rounds you are going to come up with 1 or more that are seated more shallow than a factory load and in that same mag you could end up with 1 or more bullets that are seated deeper than a factory load. a bullet that is seated shallow would catch on something and become seated crooked. this is pretty much just a disclaimer so that in an extreme condition like the fore mentioned scenarios they wont get sued by a T.O.ed customer. also a +p load has a higher risk of a casing failure or damaging the internals of the gun..it's all a liability matter. if you are a good reloader then you'll have nothing to worry about.

 

[desert.bunny]

Much Obliged

I certainly will take to heart the guidance you all have given. Much appreciated. D.B.

 

[Tim R]

Crimp the bullets.
Again the fast & heavy action demands this.

Wogpotter, I completely disagree with you on this. I load 223, 308 and 30-06 for use in service rifle competition using the AR and M-1, (Yes I have a 308 M-1 too) I have never crimped a match SMK to date and I've fired a good many of these rounds witout problems. You won't find a auto loader any harder on the brass than a M-1. Well OK maybe a M-14. You just have to remember to keep your thumb out of the way!

What I do is regulate neck tension with a bushing F/L die. I use neck tension to hold the bullet in place. I can adjust the amount the neck is reduced for said bullet by changing bushings. Works very well. You do need a set of calipers though.

 

[GONIF]

In fact an H&K 91 or g3 is worse then a M14/M1a. You can crimp or not ,it is imperitive to resise the case and to load the round to the correct OAL . If you get lucky your rifle won't be that picky.

 

[Tim R]

In fact an H&K 91 or g3 is worse then a M14/M1a.

Yeah, Yeah, I forgot about those flute makin' chambers. But I don't know if they extract any harder....

 

[jmr40]

In addition to the above. Semi-autos are designed to function within a narrow range of pressure. If the ammo is loaded too light, or too heavy it may not function reliably in a semi. Many handloaders load their cartridges up or down to widely different power levels depending on their needs. Many loads that function just fine in a bolt action will simply not function from an auto.

FWIW, almost all gun manufacturers warn against using handloaded ammo. Regardless of the type of gun.

 

[603Country]

I loaded ammo for years for my BAR in 270. I used small base dies and my powder was a medium to warm load of 4064. Never once did I have a problem, and it shot wonderfully. If anyone wants the load data, just pm me.

I'd still have the rifle if I hadn't gotten even more into reloading and wanted maximum case life (and a lighter rifle).

 

[wogpotter]

Wogpotter, I completely disagree with you on this.

Actually we're in agreement on crimping, I don't either!
My trick is to reduce the diameter of the expander ball to allow for greater neck tension, but as we were assisting a beginner at reloading I thought that the crimp was an easier starting point for someone new to the experience.

no two bullets are going to be seated the same depth into a casing when you are hand loading. in a magazine of 4 rounds you are going to come up with 1 or more that are seated more shallow than a factory load and in that same mag you could end up with 1 or more bullets that are seated deeper than a factory load.

This I disagree with very strongly. The arm has nothing to do with bullet seating depth, that is controlled by the bullet seating die set up in the press.
I measured a bunch of hand-loaded ammunition I had on hand & the variation was under 0.0003", way too tight to allow for "Bullet tipping"!

 

[tahunua001]

This I disagree with very strongly. The arm has nothing to do with bullet seating depth, that is controlled by the bullet seating die set up in the press.
I measured a bunch of hand-loaded ammunition I had on hand & the variation was under 0.0003", way too tight to allow for "Bullet tipping"!

I guess you missed the final sentence of my post where I said that if you were a good reloader then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

some people aren't very precise with their dies

 

[Elkins45]

I've never had to use special dies or really do anything different to get great functioning in several autoloading rifles. Just pay attention to your powder selections and charge weights so you don't strain the gas system. That's especially critical in the Garand where too high a gas volume may damage the operating rod.

I have been told recently that powder choice isn't a big problem with the shorter rod of the M1a (M14) style rifles in 308 and that almost any listed powders and loads are OK. That seems to be at least partially supported by the fact that there aren't notations about powders for semi-auto in the 308 listings of a lot of books like their are in the 30-06 data.

 

[Tom Matiska]

Are we by chance talking about a Lee book that came with a Lee Loader? ....not to be confused with full length resizing in a conventional reloading press.

The kit was $9.95 back in the day...... but I was gifted a used one..... It was my entry to reloading. Cheap simple way to use a small mallet to deprime and neck resize, but the case does grow a little each time.

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/LEE-LOADER-30-06-SPRING.html

 

[Tim R]

I have been told recently that powder choice isn't a big problem with the shorter rod of the M1a (M14) style rifles in 308 and that almost any listed powders and loads are OK. That seems to be at least partially supported by the fact that there aren't notations about powders for semi-auto in the 308 listings of a lot of books like their are in the 30-06 data.

Somebody told you wrong. About the slowest powder one can use safely in a M-14/M-1A is IMR 4320. I would be careful with the M-1A op-rod as they are getting getting expensive and rare as hens teeth now days.

Actually we're in agreement on crimping, I don't either!
My trick is to reduce the diameter of the expander ball to allow for greater neck tension, but as we were assisting a beginner at reloading I thought that the crimp was an easier starting point for someone new to the experience.

OK, you cracked me up with your first line and understand what you are trying to say. Problem is new reloaders seem to have problems adjusting the crimp die. I saw a .357 Mag crimped down to 38 Spl size some years back using a roll crimp. Yes I do mean a loaded 357 Mag round was crumpeled down to 38 size. The side walls where folded up and mashed together. I wish I could have snagged that round as it was awsome! The guy who crimped this case is very book smart but a little light on common sence. His car hated girls but this is another story.

 

[sigshepardo]

Its something that Lee has to put in their manual. .30-06 WATCH OUT FOR LONG CASES!!!! The max case length is 63.35mm but I trim mine back to 63mm due to expansion inside of the chamber after firing making the cases hard to work out.

 

[briandg]

That was a very correct point made about powders.

Modern slow burning powders have pressure curves that are longer and higher, and faster burning powders have higher initial pressures that rapidly drop.

A fixed breech weapon can take a sustained high pressure all the way to the muzzle. A semi auto will almost always have a gas operated system, and gasses are bled off from midway down the barrel to operate the mechanism. With Slow burning powders like 4831, your pressure may be twice as high at the bleed holes as something that has a shorter peak time, such as Blc2 or some such fast to moderate burn rate. Higher operating pressures in the gas system than necessary increase wear.

In addition to previous warnings, it would behoove you to use new brass, dedicated only to that rifle, and discard that brass after no more than 5 loadings.

Your rifle is going to violently yank the fired shell out of the chamber while it is still possibly stuck to the chamber walls, and still possibly recovering from the violent expansion and the crystals are loose. you will eventually have case head separations from stretching near the base of the shell. Better safe, as brass is cheap.

 

[hooligan1]

What the??.... Probably it just me, but did anyone think that maybe JUST MAYBE the warning had something to do with COAL, (fitting the magazine) Crimping is also an important part of handloading for automatics, but still I think maybe is all about the COAL. Come on Briandg step back from the ledge man....

 

[warbirdlover]

Wogpotter said it all. With an auto there's alot of slammin and bangin going on. Crimp the bullets and full length resize. I always fully seated the primers (flush). How can you seat them below flush without flattening them?

And the dies control the seating depth. They should all be within a couple thousanths of an inch in overall length. The length for an auto should be to cartridge specs. Don't try to load the bullet close to the lands.