At the beginning of the NASCAR race just now, they had a 21-gun salute in honor of Memorial Day. Is there a particular reason for them using M-14s instead of 16s? Please do not take this as complaining in any way, the entire presentation was one of the more inspiring things I’ve seen. I’m just curious why they used an older firearm.
Question on 21 gun salute
- Thread starter griz
- Start date
Senior_rifleman
New member
Griz, just a few thoughts. The use of the term 21 gun salute is used to describe the number of cannons fired to honor heads of states, inprortant leaders and general officers of the Armed Forces. At graveside, the General Officer is honored with a number of guns, (cannons or tubes) fired in sequence and of a number comenserate with his rank.
The military personnel of lesser rank than general officer receive at graveside three rifle volleys of not less than three firing rifles and not more than eight firing rifles. (Refer to DOD manual FM 22-5, Section VIII for details).
The use of an infantry small arm to be used for the three volleys is traditional. The M1903 and the M1 Garand are used by Veterans Service Organizations. Beginning with the M14, infantry rifles were capable of automatic fire, (e.g. machine guns). The M16 rifle is likewise designed to deliver automatic fire. In my opinion the DOD will not permit such rifle to be used by civilians even though the civilian are former military personnel.
The manual of arms used in ceremonial salutes dates back to the use of the M1903 and the M1 Garand. The M14 configuration is equally as good but the M16 is awkward.
Have a meaningful Memorial Day
The military personnel of lesser rank than general officer receive at graveside three rifle volleys of not less than three firing rifles and not more than eight firing rifles. (Refer to DOD manual FM 22-5, Section VIII for details).
The use of an infantry small arm to be used for the three volleys is traditional. The M1903 and the M1 Garand are used by Veterans Service Organizations. Beginning with the M14, infantry rifles were capable of automatic fire, (e.g. machine guns). The M16 rifle is likewise designed to deliver automatic fire. In my opinion the DOD will not permit such rifle to be used by civilians even though the civilian are former military personnel.
The manual of arms used in ceremonial salutes dates back to the use of the M1903 and the M1 Garand. The M14 configuration is equally as good but the M16 is awkward.
Have a meaningful Memorial Day
Senior_rifleman
New member
Griz, I need to post a correction. The minimum number of rifles to fire three volleys is FIVE not three! Sorry for the goof-up.
Thanks for the reply. The "awkward" part might explain the other thing I noticed. They fired from a sort of port arms position instead of from the shoulder. Then they very formaly cycled the action, pesumeably because of the blanks. I have never seen a salute fired from any position but the shoulder, but it makes does seem an M-16 would be harder to cycle than a 14.
Senior_rifleman
New member
Griz, I think of the M1903 as the standard ceremonial rifle. The bolt action needs to be manually cycled after every "Ball" cartridge or blank round is fired. The M1 and the M14 are autoloaders and cycle the actions after every Ball Cartridge is fired. However when the blank is used, gas pressure in the barrel is insufficient to complete a cycle. One of two methods are used by the firing party. One, manually thrust the bolt handle to the rear to extract the fired cartridge and release the bolt to recharge the chamber; or two, install a blank firing adaptor at the muzzle of the rifle to delay the exiting gases. Such delay permits the the action to cycle normally.
When using a M16 without a blank adaptor, recharging the rifle for the next round resembles a person attempting to start a Weed Wacker. I don't find this very attractive or military, (just my opinion).
The firing of volleys starts and finishes with the rifles at port arms. The movement of the rifles from port arms to a position of firing, (45 degrees from the horizontal) is executed quickly. I have observed some variation in firing commands including the firing from the equivalent of the "long port" position. I prefer mounting the rifle to the shoulder before squeezing the trigger. If I remember the definition of the infantry rifle it is a "shoulder fired weapon.
With all of the problems discussed here perhaps we should lobby for permission to use revolvers to replace the rifles.
When using a M16 without a blank adaptor, recharging the rifle for the next round resembles a person attempting to start a Weed Wacker. I don't find this very attractive or military, (just my opinion).
The firing of volleys starts and finishes with the rifles at port arms. The movement of the rifles from port arms to a position of firing, (45 degrees from the horizontal) is executed quickly. I have observed some variation in firing commands including the firing from the equivalent of the "long port" position. I prefer mounting the rifle to the shoulder before squeezing the trigger. If I remember the definition of the infantry rifle it is a "shoulder fired weapon.
With all of the problems discussed here perhaps we should lobby for permission to use revolvers to replace the rifles.
M14, M1, and M1903 are all more suited to ceremonial details than the M16. I have spent two and a half years on an Air Force ROTC rifle drill team; we use M1's. I've tried doing D&C type movements with a rubber duckie M16 (those rubber training ones they give out so they dont bang up real weapons); they're too short and not weighted properly, and have a pistol grip and magazine poking out awkwardly to do most D&C type movements precisely. Look at all the service Armed Drill teams; they all use M1's or M14's (or M1903's if they are really lazy, as those are really light compared to the other two rifles).
Jeff White
New member
Three Volleys of Musketry.....
Is what they fired. Any number of rifles can be used depending on the size of the firing party. 3 to 7 is the usual number.
Warring armies used to have short truces to remove the dead and wounded from the battlefield. The commanders and medical officers would arrange a stand down so that the wounded could be given aid and the dead properly honored. At the end of the truce, each side would fire three volleys to signal that they were through and were ready to resume hostilities. This tradition made it into military funeral ceremonies as a fitting way to end the funeral of a fallen warrior. It says his comrades are finished with the burial and are ready to return to the fight.
The M16 series of weapon is not really suited for ceremonial use. Any ceremonial unit worth it's salt tries to get M14s, M1s or M1903s.
Blackhawk, Contrary to popular belief, the military is not sitting on millions of M14s. The rifle was never produced in quantity like the M1903, M1 or M16. By the time they began getting the bugs worked out of production, the shut the lines down and went totaly with the M16. Most of the M14s that were put in war reserve storage were sold (read given away) through the Foreign Military Sales Program to the Phillipine Islands, Honduras, Israel and several other countries. I'm not sure how many are still in storage, but I doubt if it's more then 100 thousand.
Jeff
Is what they fired. Any number of rifles can be used depending on the size of the firing party. 3 to 7 is the usual number.
Warring armies used to have short truces to remove the dead and wounded from the battlefield. The commanders and medical officers would arrange a stand down so that the wounded could be given aid and the dead properly honored. At the end of the truce, each side would fire three volleys to signal that they were through and were ready to resume hostilities. This tradition made it into military funeral ceremonies as a fitting way to end the funeral of a fallen warrior. It says his comrades are finished with the burial and are ready to return to the fight.
The M16 series of weapon is not really suited for ceremonial use. Any ceremonial unit worth it's salt tries to get M14s, M1s or M1903s.
Blackhawk, Contrary to popular belief, the military is not sitting on millions of M14s. The rifle was never produced in quantity like the M1903, M1 or M16. By the time they began getting the bugs worked out of production, the shut the lines down and went totaly with the M16. Most of the M14s that were put in war reserve storage were sold (read given away) through the Foreign Military Sales Program to the Phillipine Islands, Honduras, Israel and several other countries. I'm not sure how many are still in storage, but I doubt if it's more then 100 thousand.
Jeff
MitchSchaft
New member
You guys seen the Marine Corps' Silent Drill Team in action? Very impressive.
MarineTech
New member
Yes I have seen the Silent Drill Team numerous times.
Having been a "line" Marine though, I have to ask the question, "We'll it sure is pretty, but is it war?"
Having been a "line" Marine though, I have to ask the question, "We'll it sure is pretty, but is it war?"
Nanaimo Barr
New member
actualy, it dates back a bit further, loud noises were through to scare off evil spirits and "Old Nick". both 3 and 7 were thought to be powerful magical numbers. 3 X 7 = 21, 21 shots are fired to scare of the Devil at funerals to aid the departed to the hearafter.
as a kid I once saw (and think I still have pics of) a "Royal Salute" of 21 "shots" done with 2 anvils and black powder.
(why they didn't use the Infantry Reserve Regement. that was baracked right next door I have no idea)
personaly, I just think the M14 is a much more cool looking firearm
as a kid I once saw (and think I still have pics of) a "Royal Salute" of 21 "shots" done with 2 anvils and black powder.
(why they didn't use the Infantry Reserve Regement. that was baracked right next door I have no idea)
personaly, I just think the M14 is a much more cool looking firearm
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Marine Tech, special drill teams have been around for forty forevers. It's mostly a show-off deal for civilians, of course, and for visiting dignitaries. The reason for a specific group is to have men of uniform size, for one thing. Another is the incredible amount of time to keep all the gear and clothing in perfect condition--it's almost a full time job. That and practice, practice, practice.
I used to be able to do the entire Queen Anne manual of arms with a Springfield, and really enjoyed the heck out of it. It ain't war, but it's fun.
And for a full platoon to do it in perfect unison with no goofs is a heckuva lot harder than one might think. "To the winds: March!" is not the easiest thing in the world to do while doing a manual of arms at the same time, either.
, Art
I used to be able to do the entire Queen Anne manual of arms with a Springfield, and really enjoyed the heck out of it. It ain't war, but it's fun.
And for a full platoon to do it in perfect unison with no goofs is a heckuva lot harder than one might think. "To the winds: March!" is not the easiest thing in the world to do while doing a manual of arms at the same time, either.
, ArtI got over the Weed Whacker syndrome before they let me graduate from Basic Training. If present day soldiers can't, chalk up one more example of our lowered standards. After a bit more than 20 years, I'll allow that I'm probably a bit rusty and would need some practice to freshen up, but that detail aside, I can cycle a 16 in a very smart military manner, and deliver a 21 gun salute at a graveside that will honor even the persnickityest old salt.
I saw it plenty of times while in uniform. I drilled soldiers until they could. (But for some reason, I always got stuck the the pallbearer detail when it came to actual funerals.) It's just a matter of proper training and practice, no different than using a 14. Or an 03, for that matter.
And I have NO patience or respect for groups that make a salute sound like a firefight, no matter WHAT they are shooting. It can and should sound like 3 evenly spaced shots. Not 21 ragged "when I get around to it I'll pull the trigger" volleys.
That's just sloppy training.
:barf:
(If we had a 'spitting on you' icon, I'd use that for such slobs.)