Question for 45 Dragoon or anyone else who knows the answer

BlackPowderBen

New member
I have a brass frame for a 1851 navy and the arbor is really loose. Does anyone have a cure for a loose arbor? The pin that goes over the arbor in the back of the frame under the hammer has been replaced with a very small screw. I can unscrew the arbor and take it right out of the frame.

JB Weld has been tried and i came loose in 7 shots.
Will locktite work better? I probally would only use 20 grains or less of powder.
 

DD4lifeusmc

New member
no loctite won't hold up either.

Is the hole in the frame wallowed out? If so not much can be done, especially at the home level

Two things that may work.
Have a machine shop permanently braze the arbor in.
Or if the arbor hole in frame is still tight. possibly drill the pin hole slightly larger and install a new hardened pin.
which could be almost impossible because the screw threads from the screw may have already made the hole to big already

good luck
 

foolzrushn

New member
What DD4life said.....

and also I think it might be a tough job. You would probably need to have the brazing done with the barrel and cylinder in place, to hold the arbor straight. They might even want to fab a tight fitting rod to keep the barrel/cylinder alignment in place. Different metals cool at different rates and can move if not held in place.

They would need to work through the hammer slot for the first tack, to hold things in place. Then remove the barrel/cylinder to access the arbor on the front of the recoil shield. The recoil ring(??) would probably be involved and need to be reformed.

All this without melting away too much brass and still getting the steel arbor hot enough to braze. This is almost in the realm of a custom jewelry maker with a tiny torch. What would it cost?

Brazing would be a durable fix, machining an oversized arbor (the part in the brass) might work.....but Cabelas has a new one for $200 and you would have spare parts.

Good luck. :)
 

Doc Hoy

New member
Fingers has the right idea

I have tried drilling down through the frame and arbor and putting in a locking screw. Drilling the locking pin whole larger. Loctite. a JB Weld equivalent which my mechanic says was better than JB Weld. silver soldering the arbor into the frame. Replacing the arbor with a new one. All the profanity I can think of. I have never been able to permanently tighten a loose arbor in a brass frame revolver.

Even replacing the frame is not all beer and skittles since you might have trouble finding one which will fit.

That brings us to my suggestion which I think is an improvement over Fingers'. ;o) Part out the revolver selling the stuff on eVilbay. You will very likely get enough for the parts to buy a brand new revolver when Cabela's puts them on sale. Assuming the stuff is in good condition, the barrel is worth 75.00, the cylinder is worth 50.00 (Make sure to take the nipples out and then turn them back in hand tight. People like that.) Triggerguard, backstrap and grip should fetch 40.00. All of the innards and screws are worth 25.00. You might actually get enough to buy a steel one.

No offense intended, Fingers.
 

swathdiver

New member
Hang it on the wall or sell it for parts on ebay. Take the proceeds and buy another in steel and use the leftover for more ammo.
 

45 Dragoon

New member
There ya go!! Lol!

Just saw this post!

Probably the best thing to do with a brass frame revolver is to correct the arbor problem right off the bat. (Of course that's the best thing to do with ANY open top!!)
I'm getting ready to set up a brass frame to be used with max.loads as a test.
My thoughts are, just as a steel frame will eat wedges if not set up, so will a softer frame (brass) deform if it is allowed to. Any time you have space in the transmission of a shock wave, the two or more parts will beat each other to failure. With a brass frame being softer than its steel counter part, it's no wonder it will shoot loose if not set up properly. When you think about it, it's a must for the brasser to be set up to deal with the stress of firing. My prediction is that a properly "fixed" brasser will handel full loads just as a steel frame will.
There will be a count of shots fired along with load info kept for the "test".

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 

Fingers McGee

New member
DocHoy said:
No offense intended, Fingers.
__________________

Non taken Doc. Your solution has a lot of merit.

Like they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat - or more to the point, compensate for a brass frame & loose arbor.
 

45 Dragoon

New member
Hawg,
Because the arbor is stronger than the Remie frame. I always tell folks that but they keep repeating the same old . . . . . line.

The only frame I've ever bent was a brass Remie and it was while I was loading obviously too big of balls. The same balls in the brass Colt type resulted in a loaded gun not a bent or pulled or anything else.

The linear forces put on the arbor try to pull the arbor apart. Even though the force is just above the arbor axis, the arbor is an extremely strong support system. It is also leveraged against the frame by a robust barrel lug. The same forces on the upper corner of the square (weaker) Remie frame put more stress on the more open design. The force is concentrated much further away from the center line of the frame and, there is very little material where the plunger passes through the frame.
If the Colt type guns were built correctly, (arbor against the bottom of the arbor hole), the problems folks have with the wedges, loosening arbors etc. wouldn't exsist. These things can only happen because they can. Take away the space (the ability), they can't.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 
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Hawg

New member
The only brass frame I have is a Remington navy. It started imprinting the cylinder ratchet into the recoil shield. What would stop a Colt design from doing that?
 

45 Dragoon

New member
Hey Hawg, my brass Remie did the same thing. The Remington relies on a flat surface to act as a bearing with the ratchet teeth cut into it . It works OK on the steel frame, not so well on the brass frame.
The Colt design incorporates a raised bearing surface for the rear of the cylinder to ride against. They carried this idea throughout the S.A. line. The Mod. P uses a recess which in effect, does the same thing.
This condition can happen to the open top as well and the reason is too much clearance for the cylinder to hammer away like a slide hammer. This brings us right back to the short arbor thing (get it fixed you guys!!). A tight barrel/cylinder clearance should be maintained to keep fore and aft cylinder movement to a minimum ( like .0015"-.002"). That makes it tough to generate enough force to damage the frame, cylinder or barrel (even with a pure max load diet).

The Remie suffers because of the same thing. The larger the barrel/cylinder clearance, the faster the damage. To solve the problem for the Remies would be to install a bushing (a la Colt) in the front of the cylinder. This would allow you to then set and maintain a close barrel/cylinder gap (since there is no bbl/cyl contact). It would also of course shield the base pin from fouling and increase (tremendously) run time.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 
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45 Dragoon

New member
Ha!! Thanks but alot of this is conjecture (I'm learning too!!) with the brasser. The brass may indeed prove to be an unacceptable material for a "long term" "normal load" frame. I know the setup works with steel, the test will shed light on the suitability of brass. I am confident that the tighter tolerances will allow it to hold up better than without, but for how long?

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 

Hawg

New member
I wish they would make them out of red brass like the originals. It would be interesting to know if they would hold up under full loads. I'm thinking the .36's would but .44's wouldn't is why they never made any brass .44's.
 

Smokin'Joe

New member
Mike, There was a post a few years ago that described how to strengthen a brass frame revolver. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354846 Check out Post # 20. I took the advise offered and modified it slightly by securing the shim to the frame with pins instead of solder. My fantasy 1851 .44 cal is one of my best shooters.

Brass51withShim_zpsa9jecflt.jpg


Brass51andShim_zpspdtezkcs.jpg


Brass51Shim_zpswbviw587.jpg
 
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