Question about velocity nodes

jugornot

New member
I decided to revamp my 223 rem bolt action load. I use 80 grain sierra Match Kings and CFE223 powder.. I was using a lower load that Sierra recommended in their manual. But I noticed Hodgdon recommended a higher load on their website. I loaded up 3 bullets each for powder weights from 23 grains to 24.2 grains. I saw a low node at the low 23 grain charge and a high node around my higher weights. I also noticed that the ES and SD were lowest at these 2 nodes. It makes sense that the velocities would settle around these velocity nodes. So to explore the higher node, I loaded three 10 round loads using .1 grain lower and above the node found previously. The node had the lowest ES and SD again.

Now the question. Although it seems logical for the ES and SD to fall to their lowest values as the velocity levels between charges, does this occur to your loads or is it a fluke. Or am I just "Captain Obvious?" The velocity node produced a .55 MOA 10 shot group at 100 yards. I probably could tighten that up using more care. I was just trying to get the info quickly.
 

OzeanJaeger

New member
That’s how it should be working if I’m reading correctly. Once you find the node and load for the middle of it, the next step is to see how jump affects the accuracy. I usually load 10 starting at .014 off the lands, and ten more every .002 increment up to .026. Compare the groupings (usually these will also have a “node”), and you’ve about tuned the load. Your lowest sd/es and jump to tightest groups should end up tuned to the rifle at any distance.
 

OzeanJaeger

New member
That’s a very standard/good method. Lots of old guys don’t like doing it that way. Just shooting for groups often lands you on a velocity node anyway, but sometimes it doesn’t. In that case it’ll group well at 100yds but fall apart past 400. The idea here is not bench rest, dime sized groups. It’s to keep it under a minute all the way out till the bullet goes trans sonic. It’s a fairly game specific method for LR, XLR, and tactical rifle sports. There are better methods if you’re shooting close range for groups.
 

jugornot

New member
The 6.5 Guys also have this on their web site. 6.5 Guys I kinda went half way between both methods, but mainly with the 10 round method but using 3 rounds so I could get some statistics on the numbers also. All my previous loads were developed using groups size only. The low node was very close (.3grain) to my accuracy load from before. I guess I need to revisit all of my old loads. But I don't think I will redo the powder tests. Way to much redoing to do that.

Thanks again fellows y'all make a great sounding board.
 

hounddawg

New member
That’s a very standard/good method. Lots of old guys don’t like doing it that way. Just shooting for groups often lands you on a velocity node anyway, but sometimes it doesn’t. In that case it’ll group well at 100yds but fall apart past 400. The idea here is not bench rest, dime sized groups. It’s to keep it under a minute all the way out till the bullet goes trans sonic.

being a old guy I am not sure if I will follow it to the letter after reading it through. Fifteen percent under to 10 % over even on a .223 load would be a lot of five round groups. Maybe I read this wrong but if I used a target load at 24.5 of Varget if I went to 15% under that would start me at 20.8 grains and go all the way up to 26.9. Five grains is a big spread and a lot of groups even at .3 grain jumps.
 
OzeanJaeger said:
Once you find the node and load for the middle of it, the next step is to see how jump affects the accuracy. I usually load 10 starting at .014 off the lands, and ten more every .002 increment up to .026. Compare the groupings (usually these will also have a “node”), and you’ve about tuned the load. Your lowest sd/es and jump to tightest groups should end up tuned to the rifle at any distance.

That is correct in principle, but way too narrow in range. The late Dan Hacket wrote in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, that he once had a Remington 40X in 220 Swift that he couldn't get great groups out of. Hackett was a benchrest competitor, so his idea of a tight group is generally tighter than the average shooter is looking for. His 40X averaged 5-shot groups of about 1/2" at 100, sometimes getting up to around 3/4" and sometimes as low at 0.375". That's a pretty normal random variation range for a 5-shot sample size. But these are all too large for benchrest matches at 100. He was loading his round 0.020" off the lands, which conventional wisdom in benchrest at the time was held to be a best number. Then one day, when he was switching to a 50 grain Nosler BT bullet that was 0.015" longer than the previous bullet he loaded, he turned his seating die micrometer 0.15" to compensate, accidentally turning it the wrong way. As a result, he was seating 0.050" off the lands instead of 0.020". He had 20 rounds loaded before he noticed the error. He considered pulling them down, but decided to shoot them in practice, instead. He fired four 5-shot groups with them, to his amazement getting two 1/4" groups and two true bugholes in the 1's (0.1nn diameter range).

Subsequently, Berger found that some of their VLD bullets, which they'd once advised everyone to load in contact with the lands, actually shoot best much further back; as much as 0.150" off the lands. This article in their Tech Talk pages describes what they found and it is worth a read. A lot of people tweak bullet seating depths in increments smaller than their seating consistency can actually give them in the gun.

If you look at the variation that is normal in 5-shot group size, as the Dan Hackett tale described, it turns out you may have 95% confidence they will range from 35% smaller to 153% larger than the overall average size. Yet, you find folks trying to use 5-shot groups or sometimes even 3-shot groups (59% smaller to 247% bigger 95% confidence range) to discern much smaller improvements. It forces you to conclude many simply deceive themselves into seeing "improvements" that aren't really there.

Regarding SD's, the only reason for them to improve is better ignition consistency for the powder. You can usually get good velocity consistency seating bullets jammed into the lands, as Berger described was their original thinking on getting best accuracy from VLD's, but, as they found, the load with the lowest SD isn't always the most accurate. Indeed, in finding a minimum group size, you are normally looking for a dead spot in POI change over a range of loads. The idea is that such a spot gives you relative immunity to small errors in charge weight an velocity so that your groups are small despite them. In doing load development with the .222 Remington back in the 1980's, I found a few powders that produced lower velocity SD's than I could get out of IMR4198 using my old break-wire chronograph, but IMR4198 was the powder that kept printing cloverleafs when the others wouldn't. Getting the barrel time right was clearly more important. Interesting, NRA load data from that time got the same result; best accuracy from 4198 with the bullets of the day, but not lowest SD.

So, if you are seeing charge weight that cause SD to drop, then something in the dynamics of the firing event is producing better ignition consistency. But you still want to verify on paper that this is also where your groups are tightest, as it won't necessarily be so.
 

hounddawg

New member
the part of that article that I linked that intrigued me was where they speculated that a particular bullet has a velocity that it loves.

I ran a few numbers using a .264 140 grain bullet with a BC of .529 and the SD and ES does not really matter until you start stretching the range out to 500 or 600 yards. If you run numbers for 2700 FPS and 2725 FPS at 800 yards there half a MOA difference, at 300 it is .1 difference in impact. Considering that you want to keep your impacts less than 1 MOA if you have a .5 MOA spread that is huge in a match
 

OzeanJaeger

New member
Within that range I find most precision and most often the correct tune. If I can't make it run there I'll start moving in or out, right to a crush fit, or back to the upper limit of safety. If I can't find it there I'm back to formula with a different pill and powder, which happens.

There is no question I go slow and painstakingly, and other people can do it faster with less rounds downrange. Sometimes I strike out and it costs me sound sleep. But I am dogged and will stay after it till I get it figured out. I enjoy it. My worst rifle I went back to formula about six times. I ended up with the smallest pill you can buy that will run with a maximum and very compressed charge before it would hold under a minute consistently, but I got it done, and my sleep patterns returned to normal.

To me this is fully half of shooting. I enjoy it as much as I do honing my marksmanship.
 
I hear you and agree with you about the fun and challenge of load development work. I just want to point out, especially since others reading the thread need to be aware of the range of possibilities available, that if you haven't tried the bigger jumps you may well miss out on still tighter sweet spots. I and a number of others have found there is commonly a second and occasionally a third seating depth sweet spot further back than conventional close-to-throat wisdom suggests there should be, and until you find both you don't know which one will prove best.

The first two paragraphs under item number 3. on this page of old load development information gives one pause to question the limitations of conventional wisdom. The human brain is very good at spotting patterns in things that aren't necessarily there, and pretty poor I identifying randomness. Stream this radio show for some examples of remarkable coincidences and demonstrations of how "real randomness doesn't look random enough".

Take a look through the forum for posts by member Mississippi. He is a university professor who teaches statistical applications. He won't believe samples smaller than 30 rounds to determine means and SD's. That is a round-about way of saying a lot of the frustration in identifying a sweet spot has to do with trying to see things in the noise that are actually masked by it.


Hounddawg,

One of the complications is that the ballistics programs predict what will happen when a bullet is fired from a perfectly rigid barrel on a perfectly rigid solid base. An actual rifle and barrel deflects during firing due to recoil and pressure distortion, so the muzzle isn't pointing in exactly the direction when it releases a slightly slower shot than it is when releasing a slightly faster one. If you tune the load to hit the right phase of the deflection, the change in angle of departure helps the slower bullet impacts the same point the fast one did. Because the trajectory of the slower bullet will have more total drop at a given range than the faster one does, this compensation will work out best at one particular range. So if you have the best compensation at, say, 600 yards, it won't be as good at 400 yards or at 800 yards, though you may not notice the 400 yard deficiency because drift dispersion angle is smaller at that shorter range, too.
 

RC20

New member
Unclenick:

Does the bigger jumps apply to ALL bullets or just VLD?

Not that I contend its solid (grin) but I don't bother to do a COAL that is not .010. It seems bullet variation more than takes up .004 of that.

In regard to the article, still reading but the first flaw I see is "the gunsmith that put the rifle together will know what the target accuracy area is" as a start point.

I don't buy that.

I am a natural skeptic so don't take it wrong.

I do the same thing with how my work day went, not what I did right, but what I did wrong trying to improve.
 
Many custom rifle smiths also develop a recommended load for a rifle while testing it. It would, however, have to be done with VLD's to be applicable.

Bullet profile could well be important. The more gradual taper of the sides of a VLD means you will have to move it a little further to double amount of gas bypass opening there is between it and the edges of the bore. You might want to try 0.020 increments for that reason.

I built the tool below to measure the distance from a case shoulder to the bullet ogive directly for rimless bottleneck rifle cartridges. I made it about 3 years before Redding came out with their Instant Indicator tool, which can be set up to do the same thing, I believe. The tool has a shoulder location cut with my chamber reamer so the cartridge shoulder stops against it, and meanwhile the bullet is pushing up a plunger that I bored and also cut with the reamer so it has actual throat contact dimensions, and it floats and pushes up against the dial indicator plunger. Since the case stops against the chamber shoulder during firing, it is what sets the actual amount of bullet jump to the throat. I have never been able to get more than about 0.005" consistency in this measurement with random brass. That is due to both variation in the amount of spring-back of the shoulder with different cases, and the variation of bullet base-to-ogive dimensions, at least to where the seating die ram is making contact with it.

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hounddawg

New member
Take a look through the forum for posts by member Mississippi. He is a university professor who teaches statistical applications. He won't believe samples smaller than 30 rounds to determine means and SD's. That is a round-about way of saying a lot of the frustration in identifying a sweet spot has to do with trying to see things in the noise that are actually masked by it.

The other day I shot a .2 MOA 5 shot group at 800, you just had to ignore the other 15 shots in that group.

I am not quite as demanding as Mississippi but my load testing is evolving constantly and 15 is the minimum for me these days.

breaking in a new barrel today today I found 3 nodes for it doing 5 shot groups at 100 and shooting across a chrono. Next week I will load up 15 rounds fore each node. The kicker is I will load 5 at the node then 5 each of .1 and .2 below it and shooting all 15 as a group at either 300 or 600 depending on wind conditions. What I am looking for are comparatively flat velocities across a .3 grain powder spread and seeing if that helps with my vertical dispersion at longer ranges. Once I settle on a load I will tweak my seating depth


So if you have the best compensation at, say, 600 yards, it won't be as good at 400 yards or at 800 yards, though you may not notice the 400 yard deficiency because drift dispersion angle is smaller at that shorter range, too.

I found that out earlier this month when doing some testing. I now use 2 different powders for 600/800 and the 800 yard load is average at 100, but produces some damn good groups ,for my shooting anyway.
 

Stats Shooter

New member
found that out earlier this month when doing some testing. I now use 2 different powders for 600/800 and the 800 yard load is average at 100, but produces some damn good groups ,for my shooting anyway

My F-OPEN .300 wm load isn't all that impressive at 200 yards, about 1 " which sounds great, but considering what the rifle is and it's purpose, that's just barley passable.

But, at 300 yards it's about a 1" group also! and at 1000 yards it will hold 4" easy in the brief instances where the conditions hold constant, like first thing in the morning before the sun/humidity/wind get going. (Electionic Target testing from a month ago).

The problem with velocity and accuracy testing using few observations is that those measurements are a function of several independent variables that also often vary. So the Fixed in Repeated Samples axiom is violated right off the bat. Then you add in small sample bias and you begin to see just how unreliable the collected data really is.

If anyone needs proof, they can take a 2.5 moa load and shoot several 5 shot groups, and they will find, if they shoot enough of them, that several groups will be sub MOA. Perhaps even more than half of them. Some will be around or just above MOA, and some will approach 2.5 moa. Many reloaders will dismiss the 1.5-2.5 moa groups and chalk it up to conditions, or themselves, or just ignore it altogether, and call it an MOA load.
 

hounddawg

New member
The problem with velocity and accuracy testing using few observations is that those measurements are a function of several independent variables that also often vary. So the Fixed in Repeated Samples axiom is violated right off the bat. Then you add in small sample bias and you begin to see just how unreliable the collected data really is.

exactly. Here is a great article from 10 years ago that explains why 3 shot groups are worthless and 5 shot groups are little better.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/118-279218/?

Last week I built a .223 bolt gun for a practice rifle and did the barrel break in Friday. I got some chrony data and the first real test will be tomorrow at 600 yards. I will be using a combination of circular error probability and velocity data to see if I can find reliable range loads. CEP is the basis for Newberry's OCW and I am combining it with the article I linked in post 3 on velocity flat spots by the 6.5 guys using the OnTarget calculator
 
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Stats Shooter

New member
exactly. Here is a great article from 10 years ago that explains why 3 shot groups are worthless and 5 shot groups are little better.

I read the article....it accurately explains why I win my local prone and bench AR competitions regularly. My varmint AR rifle/load and my AR-10 Federal GMM clone load are both 3/4-1 minute loads... painstakingly tested, adjusted, then readjusted when I switch lots of components.

The other competitors really stand no chance if I do my part because I will not throw a single shot out of 50+ out side of the 10 ring. Sometimes my varmint rifle/load will shoot a single hole and if I was a 3 or even 5 shot grouper I would say something about my 1/8 minute gun. But, it ain't a 1/8 min load/gun....it's a 1 min gun/load.


The truth is though, I am not that demanding in my own opinion. I have loads that I accept being 2 moa or even 2.5 moa depending on the application/gun etc.

I also want to add that I do not shoot 10 or 30 shot groups during initial load workup. I shoot 2x4 shot groups at the same point of aim. This let's me know where I should begin investigation
 
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Yep. I did the same thing awhile back. I made up an Excel file that "shoots" random groups in order to keep actual shooter and gun bias out, but the results weren't very different in this example except that I "fired" the shots a number of times so that the extreme size difference in the two groups of three came close to the 95% confidence limits. So this isn't likely to happen every time, but will happen roughly one time out of twenty or so.

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The older image below plots upper and a lower limits for group sizes at the 95% confidence range. I took it from tables in the Lyman #47 Handbook's article on stats for shooters. The vertical height between the blue and red lines is how far the group sizes would range 95% of the time if the average size were one unit of you choice (inches, moa, cm, etc.; the green line). You can see 25 shots give you about half the error range that ten shots do. The propensity to err (miss the point of aim) remains the same, but as the group size grows, so does the overall size of the group, causing that propensity's contribution to be smaller relative to the overall size of the group 95% of the time. This is because the more rounds you put in each group, the bigger the group gets. That's due to offering the lower likelihood errors more opportunities to occur, increasing the liklihood that they will.

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The other problem shooters have is that standard deviations of different error sources contributing to the overall size of a group add together as the square root of the sum of their squares. In other words, suppose you have one source of error, like cast bullets with inclusions that unbalance them, that cause random 2 moa error in a 30 round group fired from what is otherwise a perfect one-holer gun. Then you fix that error, but create another one, like a loose scope reticule, that also produces 2 moa of random error. Most folks think that if you combine both errors at the same time you will get 4 moa groups, but you won't. Because the sources are both random and not synchronized as to either direction or magnitude, they don't actually add like that very often. Average groups will be about 2.8 times bigger (the square root of the sum of the squares, √(4+4)=√8=2.8…). So, the shooter who has had both problems all along can be forgiven, when he discovers just the scope problem and corrects it, of thinking it wasn't that big a deal, because average groups only come down from 2.8 to 2.0 moa. Plus, if he is shooting small group sample sizes, like 3, he will have so much scatter from the small samples that he may not see any improvement at all, even though he's actually removed half the problem.

Note that the area of a 2.8… inch circle is exactly twice the area of a 2" circle, so you can think of each error source as adding its isolated area to whatever set of problems you incorporate it into. The bottom line, though, is until you get down to the last big source of error, correcting it doesn't appear to have made a major difference to the overall size of the group. It would, however, improve your score over the course of an 80 round NRA Highpower match. That is because you will randomly get more scoring ring scratches even with a small diameter change in the overall group. So, fixing any source of error is still worth it from the perspective of target scores.

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Lastly, here is a 1000 shot group with the group size evaluated by several measures. Note that as the group size gets large, the difference in results aren't great. So you can pick your poison in terms of such evaluations. (Mean radius is μDev below (green circle))

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Stats Shooter

New member
Well done Nick!

if one were to account for the most impactful variables, one could model this with each variable initially having a mean error of zero and with a normal distribution. You would calibrate each coefficient to contribute some inaccuracy based upon observation, or just guess. For instructional purposes assigning weights would be acceptable. But, for predictive power, it would need to be an empirically based model
 

RaySendero

New member
Unclenick wrote:
I just want to point out, especially since others reading the thread need to be aware of the range of possibilities available,

Also along that same thinking:
Once I establish what the velocity nodes are for a rifle
and before I start to play with seating depth,

I like to see if I can better dampen these nodes out!
I've had some good luck by adding a pressure point to the barrel if it is free-floated.
I experiment with this by using aluminum duct tape in the barrel channel of the stock.
This way I can add and remove the tape pressure point up/dn the barrel channel
without doing anything permanent that can't be undone.

PS: this can also help with a hunting rifle reload where you may want to move the
velocity accuracy node toward a higher velocity.
 

hounddawg

New member
I think one of the more interesting concepts I have read about lately is that bullets have a favorite velocity. That as log as you are getting the same velocity out of the barrel the power used can be varied and still achieve the same accuracy. I know that goes against the belief of "this caliber and this bullet likes this powder" but I am looking forward to testing the theory
 
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