I have heard lots and lots of people remark about the superiority of the Bren and even more who have stated that the 10mm is the round to end all rounds. From what I have read, the company that made the bren folded for economic reasons and poor marketing. However even if this was the case, if this pistol and this round were the next best thing since sliced bread it would seem that somebody who did have the manufacturing capability, would have bought the patent or whatevers to continue to manufacture this weapon with this round. Maybe I am greatly oversimplifying this, but it would seem that if the 10mm was so jim dandy then it would be widely popular (especially with LEO's and military). Thus is it safe to conclude that both the round and the gun were both hype.
Question about the bren ten/10mm round
- Thread starter STAGE 2
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Hype aside, the Bren Ten was (for the most part) a well-made CZ-75 copy in 10mm.
You can get the same thing now in a 10mm EAA Witness, except spare magazines for the Witness are available, something that was never a sure thing with the under-financed Dornaus & Dixon project. The 10mm cartridge is also available in Glock's G20 and G29, assorted 1911 clones and the occasional revolver. (I just bored out the .40 cylinder for my .38-40/.40 Vaquero to get a 10mm Auto smokewagon.
)
You can get the same thing now in a 10mm EAA Witness, except spare magazines for the Witness are available, something that was never a sure thing with the under-financed Dornaus & Dixon project. The 10mm cartridge is also available in Glock's G20 and G29, assorted 1911 clones and the occasional revolver. (I just bored out the .40 cylinder for my .38-40/.40 Vaquero to get a 10mm Auto smokewagon.
)CastleBravo
New member
No offense, that's not a question, that's a statement based on a lack of understanding about what you are talking about.
To elaborate:
The Bren Ten was a great design, based as it was on a scaled-up CZ-75. Having actually SHOT the gun, and not just listend to gun-store B.S., the Bren Ten exhibits several notable qualities. The most interesting one is its apparent lack of recoil, even when shooting hot loads. It is a very soft-shooter with little muzzle flip compared to even a ported Glock 20C or bull-barreled SV widebody. Aside from the noise and blast, it feels like shooting hardball from a .45. The ergonomics are also outstanding, which makes sense since it borrows so heavily from the CZ-75. They feed almost anything reliably, and can be extremely reliable and durable. My friend has a Bren Ten that has untold tens of thousands of rounds through it with no ill effects.
HOWEVER, there is no denying that Doranus & Dixon were incompetent as hell, QC varied from brilliant to flaky depending on the phase of the moon (extractors being a notable problem), and for some reason supplying magazines was beyond their capacity (no pun intended )... they are famous for being delivered in some cases without any magazines at all! So the company rolled over and died.
As for the cartridge, the notion that it is "all hype" is a total joke. The ballistics speak for themselves. It gives you more power and much more versatility than .40 S&W, .45 ACP +P or .357 Sig. Indeed, for weight-at-speed it can outclass .357 Magnum with a fatter bullet. Some hype!
EDITED TO ADD: It figures Tamara would beat me to the punch.
To elaborate:
The Bren Ten was a great design, based as it was on a scaled-up CZ-75. Having actually SHOT the gun, and not just listend to gun-store B.S., the Bren Ten exhibits several notable qualities. The most interesting one is its apparent lack of recoil, even when shooting hot loads. It is a very soft-shooter with little muzzle flip compared to even a ported Glock 20C or bull-barreled SV widebody. Aside from the noise and blast, it feels like shooting hardball from a .45. The ergonomics are also outstanding, which makes sense since it borrows so heavily from the CZ-75. They feed almost anything reliably, and can be extremely reliable and durable. My friend has a Bren Ten that has untold tens of thousands of rounds through it with no ill effects.
HOWEVER, there is no denying that Doranus & Dixon were incompetent as hell, QC varied from brilliant to flaky depending on the phase of the moon (extractors being a notable problem), and for some reason supplying magazines was beyond their capacity (no pun intended
)... they are famous for being delivered in some cases without any magazines at all! So the company rolled over and died.As for the cartridge, the notion that it is "all hype" is a total joke. The ballistics speak for themselves. It gives you more power and much more versatility than .40 S&W, .45 ACP +P or .357 Sig. Indeed, for weight-at-speed it can outclass .357 Magnum with a fatter bullet. Some hype!
EDITED TO ADD: It figures Tamara would beat me to the punch.
In addition to what Tamara pointed out, Dan Wesson is offering its 1911-pattern Pointman Major in 10mm (no lack of mags there). Apparently, a distributor, Bill Hicks & Co, is listing them on their latest FFL flyer.
S&W also reissued their 610 10mm revolver last year. In circulation still are the big Smith 10mm autoloaders from the 10XX-series (with no dearth of mags there either).
Smith made at least 6 10mm pistols: the 1006/1026, 1066/1076, and 1046/1086, the latter being DAO.
"Thus is it safe to conclude that both the round and the gun were both hype"
Uh, no. That would be called a non sequitur.
Although the 10mm's been declared "dead" (as well as presumed buried) several times, 10mm ammo sales have actually increased enough to catch the attention of the otherwise brain dead gun rags, and this increase was in fact reported last year in ShootingTimes (10/01).
HTH
S&W also reissued their 610 10mm revolver last year. In circulation still are the big Smith 10mm autoloaders from the 10XX-series (with no dearth of mags there either).
Smith made at least 6 10mm pistols: the 1006/1026, 1066/1076, and 1046/1086, the latter being DAO.
"Thus is it safe to conclude that both the round and the gun were both hype"
Uh, no. That would be called a non sequitur. Although the 10mm's been declared "dead" (as well as presumed buried) several times, 10mm ammo sales have actually increased enough to catch the attention of the otherwise brain dead gun rags, and this increase was in fact reported last year in ShootingTimes (10/01).
HTH
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I'm just going to zero in on this part of your commentary:
Yes, BUT! The average police officer/special agent/GI Joe is not an accomplished shooter and fears or loathes (pick one) recoil to a greater or lesser extent. EDITED TO ADD: There are social factors involved here too; Not only is the bravest hairiest chested candidate not always selected for the job, but socially disadvantaged persons (minorities and women, per govt regs) have first dibs at the trough of public service. So we automatically have an audience that could care less about firearms except that they are a necessary adjunct to their getting a paycheck. END OF EDIT
The FBI adopted the 10mm Auto in a S&W pistol but found their limp-wristed special agents would not shoot it because it bucked and roared.
The FBI got a "special load" made watered down to about 45 ACP strength. The 10mm cartridge case made it necessary to use a full sized pistol to hold the long cartridge. S&W, recognizing a golden opportunity shortened the case so it could be chambered in the new generation of pocket autos that used the 9mm parabellum/luger. Thus was born the 40 S&W and the 10mm never recovered from the shock.
I have a brace of Deltas, so you know I appreciate the capabilities of the 10mm.
Search up the Miami Firefight and you'll see a lot of commentary on 10mm, also.
Yes, BUT! The average police officer/special agent/GI Joe is not an accomplished shooter and fears or loathes (pick one) recoil to a greater or lesser extent. EDITED TO ADD: There are social factors involved here too; Not only is the bravest hairiest chested candidate not always selected for the job, but socially disadvantaged persons (minorities and women, per govt regs) have first dibs at the trough of public service. So we automatically have an audience that could care less about firearms except that they are a necessary adjunct to their getting a paycheck. END OF EDIT
The FBI adopted the 10mm Auto in a S&W pistol but found their limp-wristed special agents would not shoot it because it bucked and roared.
The FBI got a "special load" made watered down to about 45 ACP strength. The 10mm cartridge case made it necessary to use a full sized pistol to hold the long cartridge. S&W, recognizing a golden opportunity shortened the case so it could be chambered in the new generation of pocket autos that used the 9mm parabellum/luger. Thus was born the 40 S&W and the 10mm never recovered from the shock.
I have a brace of Deltas, so you know I appreciate the capabilities of the 10mm.
Search up the Miami Firefight and you'll see a lot of commentary on 10mm, also.
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Ok... but that still doesnt answer the question of why the such a seemingly great pistol is no longer made.
Also, I do not agree with the fact that a majority of LEO's are mot accomplished shooters. Expert marksmen, maybe not, but skilled enough to not "fear" recoil. Even so, if all the ballistics on the 10mm is true, then wouldn't agents forgo juat a wee bit more recoil for such a "great" advantage
Also, I do not agree with the fact that a majority of LEO's are mot accomplished shooters. Expert marksmen, maybe not, but skilled enough to not "fear" recoil. Even so, if all the ballistics on the 10mm is true, then wouldn't agents forgo juat a wee bit more recoil for such a "great" advantage
CastleBravo
New member
Uh, yeah it does. Reading is fundamental. What part of "management incompetence" don't you understand?
As for the ballistics, are you saying we are just making them up? Look them up yourself if you don't believe us. The hottest factory 180gr .40 S&W load hits about 1,000 ft/sec. The hottest 180gr 10mm factory load hits 1320. Again, some hype!
If you want to stick to a point of view not supported by the facts, that is your business.
As for the ballistics, are you saying we are just making them up? Look them up yourself if you don't believe us. The hottest factory 180gr .40 S&W load hits about 1,000 ft/sec. The hottest 180gr 10mm factory load hits 1320. Again, some hype!
If you want to stick to a point of view not supported by the facts, that is your business.
STAGE 2: All due respect but if you believe that the average cop/soldier/special agent (who are not avid shooters across the board I assure you) will accept more recoil for a pistol that he has trouble qualifying with in the first place let me direct your attention to many threads currently running that discuss the Scandium Airlight S&W 357 magnums. Such whining about brutal recoil you will not believe, and from people who are definitely more avid shooters than most people!
The dumbed down 10mm FBI load was a perfect opening for S&W to introduce a shortened ctg with the same ballistics as the dumbed down load. End run around the 10mm.
Bren Ten quality was suspect. Some of the machining looked like it was done on a bench grinder. Great idea but poor execution. If you have about $2000 you can buy your very own and check out for yourself.
The dumbed down 10mm FBI load was a perfect opening for S&W to introduce a shortened ctg with the same ballistics as the dumbed down load. End run around the 10mm.
Bren Ten quality was suspect. Some of the machining looked like it was done on a bench grinder. Great idea but poor execution. If you have about $2000 you can buy your very own and check out for yourself.
"Ok... but that still doesnt answer the question of why the such a seemingly great pistol is no longer made."
Well, since D&D is out of business, it is hard for them to continue making pistols. As mentioned before, EAA imports a copy while other manufacturers currently make guns chambered in the round (such as the S&W 610).
"Also, I do not agree with the fact that a majority of LEO's are mot accomplished shooters. "
You haven't seen many cops on the range, have you?
Bottom line: If you don't want a 10mm, don't buy one.
Not a flame, just my advice.
Well, since D&D is out of business, it is hard for them to continue making pistols. As mentioned before, EAA imports a copy while other manufacturers currently make guns chambered in the round (such as the S&W 610).
"Also, I do not agree with the fact that a majority of LEO's are mot accomplished shooters. "
You haven't seen many cops on the range, have you?
Bottom line: If you don't want a 10mm, don't buy one.
Not a flame, just my advice.
I don't have one Always did and always will I suppose. But forking over $2000 + for a pistol that's difficult (virtually impossible) to get mags for always gave me the chills.
Until someone picks up the ball on one of the most gorgeous pistol design I've ever seen I go to http://nordicg3K.tripod.com and stare at them pictures. You can get more info there.
If a faithful copy were to come out by a company with good management I think people would be lining up around the block.
Always did and always will I suppose. But forking over $2000 + for a pistol that's difficult (virtually impossible) to get mags for always gave me the chills.Until someone picks up the ball on one of the most gorgeous pistol design I've ever seen I go to http://nordicg3K.tripod.com and stare at them pictures.
You can get more info there.If a faithful copy were to come out by a company with good management I think people would be lining up around the block.
Jim Watson
New member
Well, there was the Peregrine Falcon, the 1991 attempt by Michael Voit of the basketball Voits, to get the design back on the market. I saw the prototypes at the SHOT show that year. They were pretty close renditions of the Bren Ten except that the silly crossbolt safety in the slide was replaced with a decocking lever.
He would not sell me SN 007.
I understand that the attempt was done in by their use of non-firearms contractors to make parts for assembly in a small Peregrine shop. They could not get decent parts to assemble into a gun to sell for a medium-high price.
A friend of mine has two of the large-frame Witness' (in .45 and .38, not 10mm.) They look pretty rough, but they do shoot. Maybe you could talk CZ into making the 97 in 10mm.
Jeff Cooper once wrote that he did not see the 10mm having a real advantage over the .45 until the range exceeded 75 yards.
He would not sell me SN 007.
I understand that the attempt was done in by their use of non-firearms contractors to make parts for assembly in a small Peregrine shop. They could not get decent parts to assemble into a gun to sell for a medium-high price.
A friend of mine has two of the large-frame Witness' (in .45 and .38, not 10mm.) They look pretty rough, but they do shoot. Maybe you could talk CZ into making the 97 in 10mm.
Jeff Cooper once wrote that he did not see the 10mm having a real advantage over the .45 until the range exceeded 75 yards.
Perceptions...
In life there are many legends: The Bren Ten has unquestionable mystique.
For an analogy in the area of rock music the real deep aficionado will tell you that the blues of Robert Johnson is compelling and mesmerizing more than any other bluesman before or since. To the casual listener, the music of Robert Johnson sounds like the poorly recorded scrawlings of a cat with a rhythmic thump of undefined guitar chords and bottleneck squalls. Which view is correct? It all depends upon your point of view.
The 10mm ctg has enviable power for an auto pistol and the Bren Ten was theoretically the right launch platform. If it had been commercially successful, Bren Tens would not cost $2K on the aftermarket. So, you can have cheap plentiful Bren Tens or collector's item Bren Tens, not both.
If people really want 10mms, there are plenty of EAAs, S&Ws, Colts, and Glocks enough for everybody. I think the market is saturated despite the mystique of the 10mm. People like the IDEA of a 10mm; they just don't like the crack and buck of firing one with true 10mm loads. That is for the aficionado only, just like Robert Johnson's music is. HTH
In life there are many legends: The Bren Ten has unquestionable mystique.
For an analogy in the area of rock music the real deep aficionado will tell you that the blues of Robert Johnson is compelling and mesmerizing more than any other bluesman before or since. To the casual listener, the music of Robert Johnson sounds like the poorly recorded scrawlings of a cat with a rhythmic thump of undefined guitar chords and bottleneck squalls. Which view is correct? It all depends upon your point of view.
The 10mm ctg has enviable power for an auto pistol and the Bren Ten was theoretically the right launch platform. If it had been commercially successful, Bren Tens would not cost $2K on the aftermarket. So, you can have cheap plentiful Bren Tens or collector's item Bren Tens, not both.
If people really want 10mms, there are plenty of EAAs, S&Ws, Colts, and Glocks enough for everybody. I think the market is saturated despite the mystique of the 10mm. People like the IDEA of a 10mm; they just don't like the crack and buck of firing one with true 10mm loads. That is for the aficionado only, just like Robert Johnson's music is. HTH
Many things to address here.
The Bren Ten, as stated, is a scaled up CZ-75, in 10 mm. The EAA Witness is a CZ-75 knock-off also, available in 10 mm. So you can get the same general design and ergonomics right now. Arguably better ergonomics, since the Witness is not scaled up it fits many hands better.
You also assume that they study terminal ballistics. They don't, they are just are gossipy and rumor driven as the next guy. Like everybody else, they don't sit at home at think about every aspect of their job. Really.
The Bren Ten, as stated, is a scaled up CZ-75, in 10 mm. The EAA Witness is a CZ-75 knock-off also, available in 10 mm. So you can get the same general design and ergonomics right now. Arguably better ergonomics, since the Witness is not scaled up it fits many hands better.
When a company goes under, other people do not always feel a need to buy up the design and continue. The Edsel was a good design ahead of its time. The 10 mm round itself is a limited market, and for a while people thought it would die out. Who would buy up the machinery and rights at that time? Now there are several designs out there.
Well, as stated, LEO types are not avid shooters. Many just shoot enough to qualify. In fact, some see a gun as part of the uniform and carry it only because they have to. From what I have seen, FBI agents are the worst LEO's I have seen on the range. YMMV. While LEO's may be better than the average shooter, they are not better than avid shooters. I have seen this proven many times at various ranges.
You also assume that they study terminal ballistics. They don't, they are just are gossipy and rumor driven as the next guy. Like everybody else, they don't sit at home at think about every aspect of their job. Really.
"What is a little more recoil for more power". Well, many agents have trouble qualifying with shotguns, which have much better terminal ballistics. They sometimes become very flinchy and develop bad shooting postures. This lead to the development of "tactical loads" for the 12 gauge. This is from your "skilled" officers.
I forgot to say on the skill part, look up recent firefights involving police officers. Historically, police hit their real life targets 10-20% of the time. Civilians in self defense hit about 50% of the time. The very BEST SWAT and specially trained units hit 90%.
There has even been an incident where an officer at close range emptied a shotgun and missed .
There has even been an incident where an officer at close range emptied a shotgun and missed .
The military has other constraints. They make changes on a geological time scale.
CastleBravo
New member
Tamara,
Got to give you a rare for that one. Clever, but wrong. For several reasons.
A Bren Ten and an all-steel 1911 both weigh about 39 ounces. Both have heavy recoil springs. And a Bren Ten has much less muzzle flip than a Delta Elite. I've fired both side by side and the difference is obvious. There is no comparison.
Also, heavy recoil springs don't necessarily reduce muzzle flip. Try a Delta Elite with a 24lb spring, then a 20lb spring and you will see what I mean. The heavy spring makes the recoil dynamics alot more unpleasant (more muzzle "flip" and torque applied to the wrist) than the 20lb spring does.
As an aside, the SV's and the Glock 20C's lightweight polymer frames don't really make them worse to shoot either, which should not be surprising to a Glock 29 fan such as yourself.
Factory standard spring on that gun? 17 lbs. No bull barrel or porting, of course, and that pesky light weight. Based on your commentary, it's a wonder it hasn't torn your arm clean off...
Edited to add: http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm06.html to compare weights of various 10mm guns for the curious.
And yes, this has gotten a bit off topic.
Got to give you a rare
for that one. Clever, but wrong. For several reasons.A Bren Ten and an all-steel 1911 both weigh about 39 ounces. Both have heavy recoil springs. And a Bren Ten has much less muzzle flip than a Delta Elite. I've fired both side by side and the difference is obvious. There is no comparison.
Also, heavy recoil springs don't necessarily reduce muzzle flip. Try a Delta Elite with a 24lb spring, then a 20lb spring and you will see what I mean. The heavy spring makes the recoil dynamics alot more unpleasant (more muzzle "flip" and torque applied to the wrist) than the 20lb spring does.
As an aside, the SV's and the Glock 20C's lightweight polymer frames don't really make them worse to shoot either, which should not be surprising to a Glock 29 fan such as yourself.
Factory standard spring on that gun? 17 lbs. No bull barrel or porting, of course, and that pesky light weight. Based on your commentary, it's a wonder it hasn't torn your arm clean off...
Edited to add: http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm06.html to compare weights of various 10mm guns for the curious.
And yes, this has gotten a bit off topic.
EAA lists a compact 10mm on their website. 3.6-inch barrel, 29oz weight, and 10+1 capacity.
I haven't shot a 10mm Witness. However, The 3-pound .45 is controllable with +P.
My friend bought a Witness. He found some 230gr +P. He discovered he's afraid of recoil. I can't pass up free ammo.
I haven't shot a 10mm Witness. However, The 3-pound .45 is controllable with +P.
My friend bought a Witness. He found some 230gr +P. He discovered he's afraid of recoil. I can't pass up free ammo.