Question About Ballistics

pipoman

New member
I am a novice when it comes to bullet weights, fps, velocity, etc.

My question is what is the benefit of using hollow point +P rounds over fmj ammo?

Today I shot my .38 into a stack of license plates. I used Winchester White Box 125 gr JHP +P and American Eagle 130 gr FMJ not +P.

The JHP +P penetrated 7 plates with each of 2 rounds. They did expand some, not as much as I expected.

The FMJ penetrated 10 plates with each of 2 rounds. They didn't expand at all and pretty much maintained their shape.

I expected the JHP +P to penetrate at least as far as the FMJ. Now I wonder why bother with JHP +P at all. Would the rounds react completely differently if fired into flesh? Would the expansion, though minor, have enough of an effect to justify their use?

Any explanation would be appreciated.



38rounds.jpg
 

RsqVet

New member
Briefly, as I can not do justice to this topic in any sort of compleate way --

1. much of our questions can be addressed in perhaps way more detail than you want in old threads found by using the search function -- in specific regard to FMJ vs. JHP on thin metal I'm not suprised at all the FMJ will do better in most penetration tests than a JHP esp. one with a soft exposed lead nose --- however there is much more to consider and penetration of sheet metal is not an especally relevent test to terminal stopping power of man or beast --- geletin is typiccaly used for this.

2. Any sort of expanding ammo is designed to get bigger and hence do more damage --- i.e. make the 38 cal bullet the size of a 45 once it hits fleash and hence cut a bigger swatch through the BG you are truing to stop hench increasing your chance of acomplishing that --- this is desierable no matter what caliber you chose to carry.

3. Penetration is good but only to a point, you need enough penetration to reach vital organs and do damage --- less than that and you get a flesh wound that may not stop a determined attacker, more than that and you risk collateral damage to others and have wasted energey as any energy the slug leaves the BG with is wasted as it could have been spent doing damage inside of him. Over penetration is a strong consideration in most areas of police and self defense carry, not so much in hunting but again any enegergy not imparted to the target is a waste. In general civilians do not need to worry about penetration to shoot through things such as walls, glass or car doors to get at BG's or penetration of BG wearing body armor. FMJ shapes also tend to bounce around more than JHP if you miss.

4. Ammo and stopping power discussions are generaly framed around a worst case scenario of a very determined attacker who may be on drugs and who will only be stoped by either A. direct disruption of the CNS or B. exsangunation by disruption of major organs / blood vesseels --- these are the onely two ways to truely "stop" an attacker, which is the point of shooting at them, death may result but it is not the goal, stopping the attacker is. Shootings such as this however are the extream case --- many attackers when they realize they are not dealing with a sheep quickly flee, a small number will push till a gun is pointed at them, and an even smaller number will require having said gun discharged, and an even smaller number fall under the must truly shoot to stop classification, however it does happen and no matter what handgun round / caliber you chose you can find cases of it taking some seemingly large number of rounds to accomplish the task.

5. Research in the area of the best of most effective ammo / round / bullet design / caliber is not absolute and is subject to interpretation and vairables so everyone has an opinion ranging from carry a 22 it's easy to carry and most people will be scared off to carry a 50 or a 44 mag with a minimum of 3 reloads, most will agree that the common duty rounds --- 38 spec / 357 / 9mm / 40 / 45 with various name brand self defense ammo --- Federal / Hornady / CorBon / Winchester / Speer all preform well and are not bad choices, read up here and elsewhere on ammo tests, consider what you feel you need for your personal use and are comfortable carrying and then practice and more practice and hope you never need it
 

RsqVet

New member
Forgot to add in general JHP ammo requires a fluid dynamic interface to exapand --- i.e. wet flesh, gelletin, water and so forth, shooting them into anything dry and hard you will not see much in terms of expanshion and even with the fluids if they passed through something first that filled the cavity on the JHP then it's gona act like FMJ more or less --- this is one reason why Hydra-shock ammo has the center pin --- to resist clogging with fabric or whatever it goes through before flesh
 

mete

New member
You will never be attacked by licence plates but you may be attacked by a BG. Always use HPs for people !!
 

shield20

New member
The JHP are designed to expand on impact - this increase in bullet diameter creates a bigger wound channel, and also limits penetration (more resistance to bullet, energy is used to deform bullet). +P in a round is usually in the form of extra velocity - which can make the round expand even faster and penetrate LESS...depends on the design of the round.

FMJ typically stays the same diameter as it started, so there is less resistance to limit penetration.

For self-defense, HP are usually considered better, as they tend not to over-penetrate, and they do more damage.
 

Rightwinger

New member
The short version.

Hollowpoints need a fluid or fluid like medium to expand. The fluid fills the hollow, and pushes on the lead and jacket, forcing the jacket to fail in a predetermined manner at the scoring in the material (those little lines in the jacket material at the tip). The jacket splits at these points and the jacket and lead are forced outward by the force of the fluid pushing on the cavity.

The problem with your test is that the force from the material entering the hollowpoint could not force the jacket and lead outward in the designed manner because the material it was penatrating was to solid for it to push into. It was harder than the lead and copper. Even some materials that are soft are still to dense to promote expansion. Fire a few into a phonebook (placed against a proper backstop, or course)... The rounds barely make it to the "M" in the local phone book, and don't expand AT ALL.

If you're firing the rounds into a fluid medium don't worry, they will expand, and do so well.
 

Pointer

New member
JHP +P penetrated 7 plates with each of 2 rounds.
Penetration isn't everything...

Expanding bullets are intended to mushroom hydraulically (In body fluids) and the HP's will generally expand better than semi-jacketed bullets... Ball ammo just makes a hole

Mediums that are not high in fluid content (Like wood and license plates) will not generally mushroom a bullet very well, if at all... :(

You should look closely at the Gold Dot 135's which were specifically designed for your "snubby". ;)

BTW, that's a very nice pocket-gun you have there...
Looks like mine... :)
 

pipoman

New member
The responses here have been helpful. The hydraulic aspect of the ammunition makes alot of sense.

Upon inspecting the holes in the plates w/the JHP ammo were only slightly smaller than the diameter of .45 ACP FMJ

When deer hunting I have had more tracking if there is no exit wound, more blood with an exit wound and I don't think I have ever had to track over 100' (w/exit wound).

I do think penetration is important, I can also see the benefit of expansion.

I will study the sites suggested. I like the un scientific but informative style of theboxotruth.com, thanks
 
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