Public safety: local PD issued M-16s

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Seen on local TV news:

In the interests of public and officer safety, the Atascadero,CA Police dept will be carrying M-16s beginning Jan 1.
"The new rifles will allow officers to shoot faster,more accurately and at longer distances than they could before". A spokeman for the PD said "Criminals have more sophisticated weapons these days and we must keep up".


Hmmmm....Atascadero is a pretty sleepy little town...not much in the way of violent crime.


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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

Coinneach

Staff Alumnus
Cops with full-auto? Gee, what could POSSIBLY go wrong?

"...allows the police to shoot faster and more accurately." Isn't that exactly why full-auto is so freakin' hard for us sillyvilians to get?!

Can we say "Double-standard," boys and girls?

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"The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it."
-- John Hay, 1872
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Hmmm...it seems the news anchor made a mistake :)
Now they are called semi-automatic M-16s.
A film clip showed them (cops) at the Camp Roberts firing range. Camp Roberts is the largest and main Army National Guard base. The rangemaster was an Army guy, and the rifles they were using looked military issue to me...had all the evil features :).



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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

dZ

New member
there was a 60 minutes report on how local police departments can acquire military arms and hardware. The process allows the military to retire elderly equipment and resupply new.

So if your local cops are equipted like an army unit, they aren't an army, right?

when the traffic control copter is an Apache,
they will be able to really control the traffic.

dZ
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Anyone remember the 'Untouchables' TV show? Ah, the good old days ... when the LEO's carried Tommy guns, to battle the bootleggers. But, that was long ago, with a failed experiment called Prohibition. We'd never be so foolish as to try that again ... ;)

In the immortal words of G. Gordon Liddy ... ah, ye suckers!
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
dZ..

I bet you're right. There is probably some kind of equipment transfer going on. Earlier in the week the Santa Barbara county Sheriff got a helicopter, donated by the military and retro-fitted for civilian use. It wasn't an Apache tho, it looks like the kind used for carrying troops

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 

jimpeel

New member
"Sleepy little town" is right. Most of the occupants are drugged out as Atascadero happens to be the home of the state mental institution for the criminally insane.

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Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is more acceptable than allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.
 
dz is right about the military releasing older M16s to local law enforcement. I think it was something less than $20 per rifle. These are the real "assault rifles" with that evil feature which may not be spoken, full auto. A lot of departments will volitionally disable the full auto feature prior to issuing them. From an administrative perspective, it costs too much to train everybody on full auto. More training time, ammunition, record keeping - just to demonstrate a lack of negligence in training (lawsuits) - all work to keep full auto out of the hands of the regular non SWAT trained officer.

The argument for the patrol rifle has been increasing for years now. Witness the death of the two officers in NH when they were fired upon by a rifle armed assailant (the disgruntled taxpayer who fled into VT), an officer shot in the back in Oakland, another officer shot in the head in San Francisco (after placing a nice six shot group into his assailant's armored chest - wasn't taught the failure drill). The most infamous incident of recent memory is the failed LA bank robbery. Because of the increase usage of rifles against patrol officers, the argument has been made to equip officers with the capability of engaging and neutralizing threats at distances which are impractical with the sidearm or not surprisingly, the patrol shotgun.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 

bruels

New member
Since the local law enforcement departments I am familiar with barely spend enough time to keep their officers proficient with their pistols, not nearly enough time to make them proficient with their shotguns, I highly doubt the officers will receive enough time and ammunition to understand when to use the full auto capability of the M-16. That, and the sheriff's department only ordered and received two magazines per rifle.

Sixty rounds at 8-900 rounds per minute soon turns the rifle into an expensive club.


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Bruce Stanton
CDR, USN-Ret.
Sgt., Kings Co. Sheriff - Ret.
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
Michelle had a copy of Untouachables laying around...I tried to watched because I liked the film as a teenager. I got through about half of it before my gag reflex got the better of me...I hope real LEOs are nothing like the JBTs in that film.
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
Oh, btw, Russian cops are not trusted with anything bigger than a Makarov and otfen not even that. OMON, otoh, is using AK74/AKSU/RPKs for patrol guns in the middle of major cities. OMON is not strictly police, but they have been crowding out the regular cops. Lovely, eh..esp. since they enforce the curfews by wastng violators.
 

Mort

New member
Hmm, this reminds me of a little dust-up in my own hometown. A fellow named Sap Kray got into a domestic dispute with his wife. Cops, upon meeting the drunken and threat-shouting Kray earlier that night, failed to arrest him and let him go home. They knew that he had a rifle, it looked like an AK-47 (heavens!). Promptly did SWAT assemble outside of his house. An officer was sent forward to talk to a distraught Kray, who was standing in his doorway. While talking to the officer, another officer shot Kray with a beanbag round. This knocked Kray back into his house, where his rifle was. Believing himself shot, he grabbed his rifle and cranked off a wild shot. The SWAT team lit into the house full-auto, causing $60,000 in damage, killing their own officer and paralyzing Kray below the waist.

I guess they should leave off the AT and just start calling themselves the SW team.
 
Shouldn't second guess the incident commander but how can he justify using force on a person who is conversing? If an individual was (threateningly) brandishing a weapon (even a knife) or reaching for a weapon, go ahead and bean bag him. Unless there is no more to this story, then I can't justify deploying non-lethal bean bags.

Knock Knock. Hello officer? Bam! Natural reaction would be self defense. Ka-Ching! Some attorney is going to be rich on this one.


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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 

G-Freeman

New member
Full auto weapons are being purchased by small departments. A recent tv news story here revealed a small community force (pop. 11k) who were lobbying for the "necessary" purchase of MP5's. I can identify with the cool factor and know many good cops are gun nuts that would love to be issued these tools and how else could they afford to play with them? Frankly, if we observed the constitution, the issue would be moot. It becomes one because of a regulated imbalance of firepower. Cops should have the best tools available for their task. Why should any other law abiding citizen not have access to the same tools?
 

Jeff White

New member
You all would be surprised by the number of full auto weapons owned by small police departments around the country. You will find everything from classic 1927 Thompsons to Reisings and MP5s. My little PD had two commercial production M16s when I started. (they have been since sold to class three dealers and the money applied to buying semi automatic duty weapons)

Gary is right in that there is a move to either replace or supplement the standard pump shotgun in patrol cars. The small South Central Illinois PD I work part time for recently bought Colt AR15A3 Tactical Carbines and we are currently developing policy and training standards before we deploy them. I know this because I am writing some of the drafts.

Many PDs are taking advantage of the Feds offer of cheap M16s. Most departments are converting them to fire semi only. Liability is a big issue in Law Enforcement and most administrators recognize that there is almost zero police application for full auto fire.

The move to the 5.56mm cartridge in a carbine sized envelope is not based on these agencies wanting to run roughshod over the citizenry. It's based on many factors, I'll list a few:

1. The rifle or carbine doesn't shoot multiple projectiles like the shotgun. Therefore it's easier for the officer to account for every round fired. (not so easy if you are shooting 00 buck at too long a range). This has become such a liabilty issue that The University of Illinois Police Training Institute is recommending that shotguns be deployed loaded with only slugs.

2. The rifle/carbine in 5.56mm is much easier for the smaller statured officers to handle then the shotgun. (Yes, I know in a perfect world there would be resources to train all officers to be expert with the weapons we ask them to carry, but reality sometimes demands that we look to other alternatives)

3. Several studies have proven that the 5.56mm cartridge actually penetrates less in indoor environments then pistol caliber ammunition. I know this sounds crazy, but the smaller lighter 5.56mm bullet is more likely to break up into fragments that rapidly lose velocity in common building materials, and while they will penetrate they are less likely to cause serious injury to someone you didn't intend to shoot on the other side of the wall.

4. The police rifle/carbine gives the officer the ability to effectively engage targets at longer distances. The department I work for is in a rural area. Many parts of town open up into fields and woods. An officer could conceivably have to return fire at 80 yards or greater. I read somewhere that 80 yards is about the average distance for a police sniper shot in a controlled environment. While every officer will not be capable of the pinpoint accuracy of a sniper (shooting the gun from the hand of a hostage taker) in many rural areas the officer needs this extra range to protect him/herself and the public.

You control your local police department. If you don't think they should have these weapons, because they have proven themselves not responsible enough to handle them, talk to your councilman, mayor, etc. I think you will find that these elected officials don't want their police department to look like a bunch of thugs and killers in the eyes of the public. Believe it or not, these local elected officials like to bury their head in the sand on a lot of these issues. I know city councilmen where I work who think that buying us body armor is a waste of money because we've never had an officer shot and that kind of thing couldn't happen here.

The police community is recognizing that people are concerned about the over-militarization of police departments nationwide.

All I will say is that you can't have it both ways. You can't have an undertrained and equipped police department when the unthinkable happens. There are ways to keep your employees (the police, yes they are your employees)in check. Except at the federal level, I don't think that there is anyway to keep them in check.

DC, Atascadero may be a sleeply little town, but so is the little town that I work for. But guess what, this past summer a national news worthy crime ended here. So saying it's a sleepy little town with not much in the way of violent crime doesn't excuse the department from being unprepared if it happens there. It can happen anywhere, even sleepy little towns.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by Jeff White (edited December 17, 1999).]
 

G-Freeman

New member
Jeff, everything you stated in your post makes sense to me. My question to you is this, do you feel that full auto weapons should be kept from regular law abiding folks like me? I don't mean the expensive and prohibitive legalities that currently exist. I say cops should have em and so should I. Without all the dumb regs they would actually be pretty cheap for us all and with proper training, actually useful.
 

Daren Thompson

New member
I am glad that police are given the oppertunity to carry a rifle of some sort. I always thought it was stupid that my dad , a Montana Highway Patrolman of 24 years, in the wide open spaces had an effective range of 50 to 100 yards. Not much at all in MT where the only other LEO could be 100 miles away at any time. He said the MHP did not want to look "aggressive." That is fine put a flower in the barrel, just have the thing handy.


Later
Daren
 

Jeff White

New member
G-Freeman,
Yes, I think anyone who wants one should be allowed to own full auto, suppressors etc. These are inanimate objects. They are not evil and will take no action on their own.

The fact that they are regulated and restricted doesn't make me any safer on the street then if they weren't. Anyone who wants one for evil purposes can get one, no law will stop that so why should that keep collectors and hobbyists from enjoying them.

On the other hand, I can see almost no reason for a police agency to have full auto weapons. Even the Bank of America shoot out in LA a couple of years ago didn't convince me that the police need full auto fire power.

Who remembers a couple of years ago when the FBI SWAT team had their suburban stolen and some of the ordinance that was in it was M203 grenade launchers and 40 mm HE rounds. Where were all of the questions about what the FBI was doing with this type of area weapon. This really bothered me. The press seemed to blow it off, but did anyone ask what the FBI needed with high explosive grenades and the capability to launch them 350 meters? What is next for them, mortars, artillery? I think instead of worrying about Andy and Barney having M16s we should ask what a federal agency whose major case load is white collar crime needs with area weapons like M203s and HE grenades.
Jeff
 

Rotorhead

New member
I live about 4 mi from an FBI training site and ride my mountain bike at night in the hills around the site. Sure seems to be a lot of M-60 training going on the last few weeks. I have been wondering what type of Y2K scenerio that contingency is for. Maybe I'm just paranoid.
 
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