I was reloading my .38 special and started thinking. Can i load .357 loads in my .38 special brass if i am going to shoot them in my S&W .357 mag? I only ask because i do not own a .38 pecial gun only the .357 mag and No one else EVER shoots my hand loads, and i aquired #500 - .38 special brass and am currently low on .357 mag brass.
Probably a dumb question
- Thread starter hbhobby
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Never a dumb question, I have wondered the same thing myself. Magnum loads are derived by the case capacity, powder load and primer as specified by SAAMI CPU levels for the caliber. Obviously your magnum is built to handle more CPU's than a 38 Special, but the problem would lie with the capacity the 38 special cases have. I would be concerned if you used a fast powder (large slow powder loads wouldn't fit into a 38 case) that possibly the smaller case dimension would create excessive pressure and possible rupture the brass. I too have several magnums and have acquired quite a stock of 38 brass over the years, I just load upwards of the max load for 38's knowing the magnum will handle it. You might want to note however, if you shoot a lot of these through your magnum it will cause a lot of fouling in the cylinder and have to be thoroughly cleaned before you can get a 357 round to slide freely in and out of the cylinder.
Lost Sheep
New member
Cyberbach said exactly what I would have said.
Can you find anyone to trade your 38 Special brass to for .357?
Only one of my .357s have ever even SEEN a 38 Special case, and the one that has only saw 50 (those 50 wore out after a while and I never bought any more). I load a lot of 38 Special power level rounds in .357 cases, though.
I am TOLD (see Dahermit's post just below this one - what you are told on the internet should ALWAYS be suspect. And yes, my 38 Special brass did crack at a fairly young age compared to my .357 brass.) that 38 Special brass is as strong as .357 brass and that it is the strength of the gun that governs the loading levels. But be cautioned, the increase in pressure that comes with a reduction in volume is likely to be more hyperbolic than linear. That is a 10% reduction in interior case volume is as likely to yield a 30% increase in pressure as it is to yield a 10% increase.
So, if I were to do what you are contemplating, I would start within published 38 Special charge weights and work up a tenth of a grain at a time, looking for pressure signs (flattened or cratered primers, sticky extraction, split case mouths, non-linear velocity increases and a myriad of other clues). If you don't have a chronograph, consider trading off $100 worth of your brass to get one.
Lost Sheep
Can you find anyone to trade your 38 Special brass to for .357?
Only one of my .357s have ever even SEEN a 38 Special case, and the one that has only saw 50 (those 50 wore out after a while and I never bought any more). I load a lot of 38 Special power level rounds in .357 cases, though.
I am TOLD (see Dahermit's post just below this one - what you are told on the internet should ALWAYS be suspect. And yes, my 38 Special brass did crack at a fairly young age compared to my .357 brass.) that 38 Special brass is as strong as .357 brass and that it is the strength of the gun that governs the loading levels. But be cautioned, the increase in pressure that comes with a reduction in volume is likely to be more hyperbolic than linear. That is a 10% reduction in interior case volume is as likely to yield a 30% increase in pressure as it is to yield a 10% increase.
So, if I were to do what you are contemplating, I would start within published 38 Special charge weights and work up a tenth of a grain at a time, looking for pressure signs (flattened or cratered primers, sticky extraction, split case mouths, non-linear velocity increases and a myriad of other clues). If you don't have a chronograph, consider trading off $100 worth of your brass to get one.
Lost Sheep
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.38 Special cases are thinner than .357 Magnum cases. .38 Special case necks crack with repeated firing, more so than other cases as it is. In my experiance with the shooting the .38 is that the cases last only about 1/4 as many mild hand loads as .357 Magnum. I would not do it. But then, its your eyes and fingers...they are yours to gamble with.
Not a dumb question but you are going to have to dig deeper for an answer. I find it odd that people wildcat and work up loads in every type of brass imaginable but the second you use a parent case without modifying it, it becomes a bad idea. I wonder what people would say if I said I wanted to cut down my 357 magnum brass to 1.220 inches and work up a load? I'm going to call it a 357 half-mag. Maybe I trimmed my brass .005 or .010 or .020 or .030 or maybe even 0.135 inches too short and want to work up a load, starting at a safe start load and working up just like we do with every other cartridge.
I wonder what Elmer Keith would say if someone told him he couldn't load his bullets into 38 special cases and drive them at 357 velocities?
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMagnumPerformance.htm
I wonder what Elmer Keith would say if someone told him he couldn't load his bullets into 38 special cases and drive them at 357 velocities?
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMagnumPerformance.htm
I have loaded .38 pretty hot for shooting in 27 and 28 smiths. I loaded the bullets to .357 mag length so they wont go into most .38s and have the same capacity as a .357 behind the bullet in the case. But I stuck to pretty much hot +P+ .38 loads vs the old standard full house .357 loads and used low miles as in new brass with mag primers.
Keep em safe
.357 loads disguised as .38 Specials.
This is a bad idea. Bad things will happen.
I have a lot of .38 Brass but I never load it up to .357 pressures.
The safe and reasonable way to go is to just load them up to .38 +P
as your absolute maximum.
If you do load them up - you must Mark them (red nail Polish) on the case head. Label the box and lock them up seperately.
Look at reloading data for the 45-70 Govt.
There are 3 different categories of loads 1. trapdoor 2. Lever action
3. Single shot -modern gun
If you go to the Gun store you will only find ammo that is loaded to the lowest pressures for the weakest gun.
Manufacturers do not load 45-70 HOT, because they know that some idiot will put it in a trapdoor gun.
Load your .38 brass to .38 special loads. You won't regret it and the paper target will never know the difference. JD
.357 loads disguised as .38 Specials.
This is a bad idea. Bad things will happen.
I have a lot of .38 Brass but I never load it up to .357 pressures.
The safe and reasonable way to go is to just load them up to .38 +P
as your absolute maximum.
If you do load them up - you must Mark them (red nail Polish) on the case head. Label the box and lock them up seperately.
Look at reloading data for the 45-70 Govt.
There are 3 different categories of loads 1. trapdoor 2. Lever action
3. Single shot -modern gun
If you go to the Gun store you will only find ammo that is loaded to the lowest pressures for the weakest gun.
Manufacturers do not load 45-70 HOT, because they know that some idiot will put it in a trapdoor gun.
Load your .38 brass to .38 special loads. You won't regret it and the paper target will never know the difference. JD
Elmer was not one to worry about safety. He wrote about more than one of his "hand loading misadventures". We are older and hopefully wiser now. Risky business should only be in regard to the opposite sex, and certainly not in hand loading...follow the rules, stay safe.
Also, consider the irresponsibleness of loading .357 loads into .38 Special cases. You load up a batch. You die. Your widow gives the .38 Special "bombs" to cousin Jim who has an early Spanish .38 Special revolver who decides to shoot it.
C7AR15 said:
Yes it can be done but do take care to keep them away from other 38 spl only guns. I have a Ruger GP 100 in 38 spl only that will take on 357 power in the 38 spl brass. Look for info on the 38-44 outdoorsman loads. This is why I don't ever shoot found or unknown reloader of ammo.
I appreciate all the responces. I am not going to load .38 brass with .357 loads i was just curious if it was possible (good idea) if i ever needed to have some .357 loads. As far as the paper i kill it does just fine with my whimpy .38 loads (makes my arthritic joints feel better too). But my mind often thinks what if i ....
m&p45acp10+1
New member
There are some people that load .357 Mag loads in .38 Spcl cases. They use long heavy for caliber bullets, and seat the round long (in fact long enough they would be way too long to load in a .38 spcl cylinder.). The reason is that the same bullets in .357 cases would be too long to chamber in a .357 mag revolver.
I am waiting on the time when I can pick up some .357 Mag brass to load for my Mod 28 Smith. I have a gun chambered for .38 spcl so I will not chance things by loading magnum rounds in the non magnum cases.
I am waiting on the time when I can pick up some .357 Mag brass to load for my Mod 28 Smith. I have a gun chambered for .38 spcl so I will not chance things by loading magnum rounds in the non magnum cases.
Can i load .357 loads in my .38 special brass
Possibly but not advisable.
First 'OH, ****' is the potential of mixing into the supply being fed to a normal strength .38 Special. That could very well be very dangerous!
Now for your actual loads. Seating the bullets deeper into the case (OK, the case is shorter by what? .135 inches or so.) and the available space is reduced, a lot. This makes for greater pressures and velocity. That's great except the pressure gain is not as good as the velocity results.
OK, I don't have valid numbers to show this for the .38 Spec. But, I do have other numbers that support what I fear.
Another chambering with a 110 grain bullet and the same everything except the seating depth. I have documented an increase of velocity (sorry, I don't have the equipment needed to measure internal pressures.) with shorter/deeper seating. As I was searching for the best loading for this particular round/weapon, I experimented with several seating depths.
I found that (with this one weapon/chamberring) the reduction of 65 thousands of an inch produced and increase of 35 FPS. Not much but this is a statistical valid number and works out to 71 FPS for the tested powder (H110). This seemingly minor increase in velocity can only be produces by a rather large (depending upon ones view) increase in pressures.
Extrapolation of the above would indicate that a substantial increase in internal pressures would/should occur with the compacting of the combustion chamber. Unfortunately, this does not equated to equal increases in efficiency of energy transfers, ie., velocity increase.
To the nitty gritty. Loading with .357 spec loading information into .38 Spec cases would provide much greater velocities and even greater internal pressures. Would this be into the dangerous levels, I don't know. But, I do know that I wouldn't just jump into the loading process with the .357 data. I don't relish the idea of blowing up weapons and blowing off my hands and face.
End view. Can you? Yes.
Is this a wise thing to do? No.
Under very controlled circumstances, slow and very cautiously testing could be conducted with the end results of driving up the velocities of loadings with .38 Spec brass well beyond that normally loaded. To those normally encountered with the .357 mag round.
WHY? Just load regular .38 loads or regular .357 mag loading in the proper brass casings.
Think about what and why.
OSOK
Possibly but not advisable.
First 'OH, ****' is the potential of mixing into the supply being fed to a normal strength .38 Special. That could very well be very dangerous!
Now for your actual loads. Seating the bullets deeper into the case (OK, the case is shorter by what? .135 inches or so.) and the available space is reduced, a lot. This makes for greater pressures and velocity. That's great except the pressure gain is not as good as the velocity results.
OK, I don't have valid numbers to show this for the .38 Spec. But, I do have other numbers that support what I fear.
Another chambering with a 110 grain bullet and the same everything except the seating depth. I have documented an increase of velocity (sorry, I don't have the equipment needed to measure internal pressures.) with shorter/deeper seating. As I was searching for the best loading for this particular round/weapon, I experimented with several seating depths.
I found that (with this one weapon/chamberring) the reduction of 65 thousands of an inch produced and increase of 35 FPS. Not much but this is a statistical valid number and works out to 71 FPS for the tested powder (H110). This seemingly minor increase in velocity can only be produces by a rather large (depending upon ones view) increase in pressures.
Extrapolation of the above would indicate that a substantial increase in internal pressures would/should occur with the compacting of the combustion chamber. Unfortunately, this does not equated to equal increases in efficiency of energy transfers, ie., velocity increase.
To the nitty gritty. Loading with .357 spec loading information into .38 Spec cases would provide much greater velocities and even greater internal pressures. Would this be into the dangerous levels, I don't know. But, I do know that I wouldn't just jump into the loading process with the .357 data. I don't relish the idea of blowing up weapons and blowing off my hands and face.
End view. Can you? Yes.
Is this a wise thing to do? No.
Under very controlled circumstances, slow and very cautiously testing could be conducted with the end results of driving up the velocities of loadings with .38 Spec brass well beyond that normally loaded. To those normally encountered with the .357 mag round.
WHY? Just load regular .38 loads or regular .357 mag loading in the proper brass casings.
Think about what and why.
OSOK
Your question has been well answered ... But I only have .357s around here also.... No .38s. Therefore I don't even have .38 brass around to load. If I want .38 level loads ... then that is what I load in .357 brass cases
. If I want .357 level loads, I use the same .357 cases . Also eliminates the 'dirty' ring created by .38s used in a .357 chamber that needs to be scrubbed out. Win win. Same with .44Mag. I do have .44Spec cases because I have .44Spec revolvers. However they never get shot in my .44Mags. Just my rule. As a reloader you can reload from light to hot.... which is the beauty of rolling your own. Choices!g.willikers
New member
Are/were the .38-44 cases any different than those for .38 special?
Here's loading data for the .38-44:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?53508-38-44-data
Here's loading data for the .38-44:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?53508-38-44-data
I'm not sure (I'm researching now) there is any difference between .38 Spec. and .357 Mag. brass other than the length. Early in my reloading career, I had an OOPS! and loaded some 38 brass with my medium/high .357 Mag. load of Unique and a 158 gr. SWC (way over .38 Special pressure). Shot them in my .357 and could see no difference in preformance (but I know the reduced case capacity caused higher pressure/velocities) and brass survived to be reloaded again ? many times more. I'm still checking around, but most of my google hits are links to other forums, nothing "factual" yet. Gonna try SAAMI next...
Hmm, not much info on internal case dimensions on google/SAAMI pages. I can always cut a Magnum case down to Special length and weigh it, or section a .38 and .357 case and actally measure the web, base/head thickness, wall thickness, etc., but I'd like to read some actual specifications. Any ideas on where to find real data?
Hmm, not much info on internal case dimensions on google/SAAMI pages. I can always cut a Magnum case down to Special length and weigh it, or section a .38 and .357 case and actally measure the web, base/head thickness, wall thickness, etc., but I'd like to read some actual specifications. Any ideas on where to find real data?
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I use 38 brass for all my .357 and .38 loads. If you are unable to keep one load separate from another you might want to stick with commercial ammo. Both the Keith and Skelton loads still work great in large framed revolvers. Cast or buy the bullets (rimrock might be a good source).
g.willikers
New member
mikld,
How about just filling the cases in question with water, and comparing, to check the internal volumes?
That's the only measurement that matters.
How about just filling the cases in question with water, and comparing, to check the internal volumes?
That's the only measurement that matters.
Lost Sheep
New member
Archimedes principle.mikld said:
With a .38 Special case and a .357 Magnum case:
Weigh each case (with dead primer). Fill with water. Make sure the outside of each is dry. Weigh again. The weight of the water in grams is equal to the volume of the case in cubic centimeters.
(Pure distilled water at 4 degrees centigrade is 1 gram per cc.)
You can easily calculate the amount of the volume you lose to the bullet by observing the seating depth.
From there, you can compare, between the two cases, the volume available for the powder and free volume (the unoccupied space) inside the cartridge. As oldpapps stated, reducing the volume (without reducing the powder charge) increases pressure, and the increase is not proportional to the volume reduction. It is superproportional.
If you have the same amount of propellant inside a smaller case, you have not just reduced the volume of the case, you have reduced the ratio of free space to the volume of the space occupied by the powder granules. HUGE potential for pressure increases. It is the unoccupied space that first absorbs the pressure rise.
My suggestion is to reduce the powder charge (of a proven load) proportional to the reduction in volume. In this way you keep the ratio (free space/occupied space) the same. That is, if you want anything close to the same pressure. Keep in mind that you have also changed the SHAPE of the combustion chamber. This may have some effect on the pressure curve, but I have no idea how large that effect might be.
Lost Sheep
I sug
I load and shoot both frequently in my 6" Ruger GP100. My wife like those filthy, smokey, light 750fps target loads with 158gr cast BBWCs in .38 special cases while I like to load up those H110/296 powered magnum loads in .357 cases.
The .357 case size was not increased for powder capacity, but so that they would not drop into .38. Other than with the magnum ball powders H110/296 you can easily exceed .357 pressures with oversize powder charges that fit in .38 cases.
You can easily find +P loads that would overlap mild .357 loads using magnum ball powders like H110/296, or even Blue Dot shoots nice and clean with an imprssive muzle flash. They shoot and feel like .357 magnums, and you can use the same components under a larger charge when you come across .357 cases.
As for the "black ring" from .38's, its the same ring already in your cylinder from .357's, only moved up slightly. It is cosmetic. I've never shot dirty .38s to cause problems putting my .357s into the same gun, but if its a fear, stick with the powders I mentioned which are very clean shooters.
I don't know about case thickness differences on .357s but do know for a fact that there is a huge difference not only in thickness, but in case head attachment re-enforcement between .45 Colt and .454 Casull while working up a heavy .45 Colt deer load when .454 was not deer legal in Ohio. Simply cut the two cases in half, vertically, and side by side view the profile and its obvious.
The .357 case size was not increased for powder capacity, but so that they would not drop into .38. Other than with the magnum ball powders H110/296 you can easily exceed .357 pressures with oversize powder charges that fit in .38 cases.
You can easily find +P loads that would overlap mild .357 loads using magnum ball powders like H110/296, or even Blue Dot shoots nice and clean with an imprssive muzle flash. They shoot and feel like .357 magnums, and you can use the same components under a larger charge when you come across .357 cases.
As for the "black ring" from .38's, its the same ring already in your cylinder from .357's, only moved up slightly. It is cosmetic. I've never shot dirty .38s to cause problems putting my .357s into the same gun, but if its a fear, stick with the powders I mentioned which are very clean shooters.
I don't know about case thickness differences on .357s but do know for a fact that there is a huge difference not only in thickness, but in case head attachment re-enforcement between .45 Colt and .454 Casull while working up a heavy .45 Colt deer load when .454 was not deer legal in Ohio. Simply cut the two cases in half, vertically, and side by side view the profile and its obvious.