PRK Legal TC Contender? Legal Loophole in PRK safety law?

P

Pendragon

New member
I was just at the gun show in Sacramento.

I was kicking myself because I had been wanting a TC Contender handgun for a long time but they are not "approved" and I heard they never would be.

Anyway - these people had a whole table of TC Contender parts and they had 4 full hand guns!

Well - the ones they had are "curios" because they are "special edition" versions - one had an IHMSA engraving and there were other engraved models.

I did not know that the Cali law had a provision for such things.

It seems to me that companies who want to sell in Cali could just make up some special editions every so often and do an end run around the safty approval thing.

Does anyone know more about this?

If you want a new TC pistol in PRK, email me and I will give you the contact info...

I put this in Legal because while it is good news for hand gunners, there is a larger legal issue that is worth discussion.
 
J

Jim March

New member
Wow, you BET that's a loophole!

Jeez, this could legalize, fr'instance, the entire S&W Custom Shop?

(scratches head)

There's been a ton of commemorative 1911s done over the years...some Colt, some otherwise.

HMMMmmmm.........

Didn't take long to find these:

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=2161216

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=1873147

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=1845417

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=2168194

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=1885787 - this one was moderately carried and shot, S&W 27 with a 3" tube, reasonable price...

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=2127894 - may sell for under reserve, Walther .40S&W

Tomorrow I'll look up SB15 as passed, see what the language really is.
 
J

Jim March

New member
Well here's the text of the Calif "junk gun law" as passed:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/99-00/bill/sen/sb_0001-0050/sb_15_bill_19990830_chaptered.html

Per this, there's nothing specifically about commemorative stuff. SA revolvers with at least five shots and an overall length of 7.5" measured parallel to the barrel are excempt - those limits are probably to specifically screw NAA minis and American Derringers. (although NAA could take the MiniMaster and stretch the barrel to about 5" or 5.5" :D.)

Now, it DOES say it doesn't apply to C&R guns. I'm not up on Curio and Relic laws...is it possible limited-production commemorative handguns fall under C&R rules?

If not, then there's a lot of references to other Penal Code sections that would all have to be run down. They don't just "write law" - they enmesh new law into the existing by referencing existing law, making it a PITA to sort out what they're really doing. Which is no doubt the intent.
 
P

Pendragon

New member
my guess...

That is actually good - sounds like CA law defers to BATF law/code as to what a Curio is.

I asked the people at the booth how this was possible - they said that the TC guns were bona fide "Curios" and thus, exempt.

I will try and find some ATF code or rules on Curios...
 
P

Pendragon

New member
Know of any Curio 'Assault Weapons' ?

I wonder if this would be a loophole to let you get a AR-15 pattern rifle?

didnt JPFO make a special edition a while back?

hmm....
 
R

rowdy1

New member
2001 Dangerous Weapons Control Laws

12125 thru 12133 Handgun Safety Testing


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHAPTER 1.3. UNSAFE HANDGUNS


12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(1) The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state, of any prototype pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person when the manufacture or importation is for the sole purpose of allowing an independent laboratory certified by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12130 to conduct an independent test to determine whether that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is prohibited by this chapter, and, if not, for the department to add the firearm to the roster of pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person that may be sold in this state pursuant to Section 12131.
(2) The importation or lending of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by employees or authorized agents determining whether the weapon is prohibited by this section.
(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(4) The sale to, purchase by, or possession of any pistol, revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by the Department of Justice, any police department, any sheriff's official, any marshal's office, the Youth and Adult Correctional Agency, the California Highway Patrol, any district attorney's office, and the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties. Nor shall anything in this section prohibit the possession of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by sworn members of these agencies, whether the sworn member is on or off duty, or an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a concealable firearm upon his or her retirement.
(c) Violations of subdivision (a) are cumulative with respect to each handgun and shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by this section and other provisions of law shall not be punished under more than one provision, but the penalty to be imposed shall be determined as set forth in Section 654.
 
P

Pendragon

New member
hmm

so - we can get unsafe hand guns as long as they are curios.

I wonder if that applies to hi-cap magazines for old BHPs?

sounds like this doe snot apply to AWs

thanks for the cite rowdy1
 
M

MatthewM

New member
You can buy any pistol that is NOT on the list as long as you buy it from an individual and not a dealer. The law very specifically excludes "private party transfers".

So, you can get a friend or relative in another state to buy the pistol in their name and then sell it to you. Absolutely nothing illegal about it. This law was never meant to keep us from buying certain guns, it was just to make liberal legislators look good to their constituents and to make it more of a hassle for us. There never was a concern over safe models of guns.
 
P

Pendragon

New member
You cant buy from someone out of state...

I dont think I could have my uncle - I have one in UT - buy a TC Contender and then sell it to me.

He would have to ship it to a FFL - I already tried getting one thru gunsamerica.com, etc.

I can buy an "unsafe" gun from someone IN Cali - but you cant bring them in to the state and you cant buy them from people in other states.

AFAIK
 
P

Pendragon

New member
thats the one...

yeah - they had 2 of them - very reasonable.

I was kicking myself because I had just bought a .22 rifle and the Contenders were about the same price - I had simply given up 3 days too soon :(

I sound a Colt Sporter .223 on the C&R list - does that mean I can get a cruffler license and buy one in Cali?

I think gun companies should make some 2nd ammendment edition Assault Weapons and some anti-gun control editions and proliferate them in Cali. >:)
 
R

rowdy1

New member
Pendragon,
I don't think the lawmakers even know the laws in this state. I get more confused the more I read.:D
 
E

EOD Guy

New member
For it to be exempt as a curio or relic, it has to be specifically listed on the BATF curio and relic list or be at least 50 years old.
 
P

Pendragon

New member
the big questions are:

HOW do you get a gun on the "curio" list?

CAN people in CA buy "Curios" that would otherwise be banned by the California Assault Weapon Ban(s)

WHY not encourage gun companies to make more "curios" since that appears to be a loophole for handguns - but what about assault weapons?
 
P

Pendragon

New member
interesting FAQ

http://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm


The new "ASSAULT WEAPONS" laws include some C&R, depending on configuration. The DOJ has not issued a weapon specific list (and probably will not), so each semi-auto C&R must be evaluated against the statute. You can find the statue and proposed regulations at the CA DOJ firearms website http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/ You must look at BOTH the statute and the regulations. Other than antiques, defined as manufactured prior to January 1, 1899, which are specifically exempt, ANY semi-auto C&R rifle or pistol is potentially an "assault weapon." An "assault weapon" can NOT be imported, even through a Class 01 (dealer) FFL, except under very restricted (LEO, etc) circumstances. Depending on configuration, "assault weapons" can include M1 carbines, Garands, Mas 49 and 49/56, FN-49, C96 Mauser Broomhandles, etc. All semi-auto firearms are suspect; the law is configuration specific, and removal or addition of a single feature can make a firearm legal, or banned.
Click to expand...

damn!
 
M

MatthewM

New member
Pendragon, you can DEFINITELY buy from out of state. The person out of state must be a private party and ship them to your FFL dealer. You fill out the paperwork just like every other transaction and go pick up the gun after the ten days. This will add from $15 to $40 to your cost because your uncle will have to first put it in his name.

If using uncle, I would have him include a short letter, "Thanks so much for taking this off my hands. I really don't like it like I thought I would". This is just to make sure that the transaction can't be construed as being a "constructed" transaction specifically to circumvent the law.

A willing dealer could even sell it to you from out of state if he first put it in his own name. Easier to just ask your uncle.

ps: Me & friends have done this multiple times.... One of the local stores even had to call the DOJ because they did not believe us.
 
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