Private ownership of cannon during Revolutionary war?

sbryce

New member
I am involved in a discussion of the RKBA on a newsgroup. A poster asked what kind of arms the 2nd amendment allows me to own. I listed machine guns, explosives and shoulder mounted rockets. He disagrees.

I wonder. During the American Revolution were the cannons privately owned? If they were, could it be argued that the 2nd allows for private individuals to own cannons? If that is the case, then we can extrapolate and argue for the private ownership of larger guns than the standard hunting rifle?
 
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Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Tsk, tsk, Aion. Let's not play into the semantic hands of our foes...

Fact remains...

There were privately-owned cannon and privately-owned warships with cannon in the Revolution.

The Constitution gives congress the power to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal; look up what those are.
 
Far as I know none of the cannons were privately owned. Most were actually captured from the British, although some may have been bought from France after the War started. Doesn't mean they didn't intend for us to bear them though:D
 

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
IIRC there were small cannon in amongst the powder and shot in the armories of the Minutemen that precipitated the shoot-em-up's at Lexington and Concord. I'm relatively sure they hadn't been captured from the British.
 

jimpeel

New member
I had written in a previous thread that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written by the same people who kept a brace of working field pieces as lawn decorations.

Don Gwinn asked if I could cite this but, unfortunately, I couldn't. This is what I wrote him:
Sad to say, no, I don't (have a cite). That is something that I have come to use as a rather snippy retort to those who feel that field pieces are off limits -- even though the Phiharmonic has cannon players for the 1812 Overture, with Cannon.

There are sites on the Internet that display firing cannon for sale in full size and scale versions that anyone may buy. I don't know if there is even a requirement that they be registered as destructive devices. I don't believe there is.

I assume that the founders had cannon at their mansions just as you see depicted every time you see a Southern mansion.
 

Jim March

New member
That's a good point though - at the time, private merchant vessels packed all kinds of cannon. Giant muzzle-loading brass shotguns that were mounted on swivels on the rails were also common as ship defense guns, I forget what those were called.
 

Indy_SIG

New member
Sbryce,

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

When one leaves emotion and desire out of the discussion, and simply looks at what this amendment says, it is obvious that those who debated and agreed on this wording did so with the intent that the right to keep and bear arms was born from the need to be able to maintain a "well regulated Militia".

Gun rights advocates often argue that the first half of the amendment is irrelevant to the second half. That the "right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" part can stand alone.

Nonsense.

If those who debated the wording had simply wanted to say that, the amendment would have read more like "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." If they weren't expressing the reasoning for why such a right was needed, then why did they preface it with the part about the Militia and security of the state?

The point I tirelessly try to pound into the sometimes seemingly feeble minds of my fellow gun enthusiasts is this: EMBRACE THE FIRST PART OF THE AMENDMENT! The Constitution mandates that a well regulated Militia is necessary. It also says that the people can keep and bear arms to be a part of it. It doesn't matter a rats ass that hardly anyone believes that a "well regulated Militia" is necessary anymore. The Constitution says it is required and that's all that matters. Until the document is amended to repeal the 2nd. amendment, Militia's will be necessary, and the people will have the right to keep and bear arms to be a part of it. It's a means to an end people!!!.......arguing that the 2nd. amendment gives you the right to keep and bear arms, in and of itself, for no stated purpose, is foolish (it's also incorrect). The amendment, in its' entirety, gives you the right. Who cares if it's not for the reason you would like. Be happy! It'll take 2/3 of both houses of Congress and 3/4 of the states to repeal it...it will never happen! By Constitutional requirement, Militia's will ALWAYS be necessary....thus, so will your gun rights.

Whew.....deep breath.

OK, as for "Letters of Marque and Reprisal"....this is a concept that is much older than the United States. "Privateering", as it is more commonly called, was indeed popular in the American Revolution and, to a lesser extent, in the War of 1812. It's swansong, I believe, was during the American Civil War (used by the CSA). Lots of folks getting rich back then, plundering at will with the blessing of our elected leaders (totally acceptable for the time period). I am not aware of any documented instances of privately owned land-based cannon being used in the American Revolution, but I also wouldn't discount the possibility. Anyway....the relevance of such privateering to the wording of the 2nd. amendment is the issue. I say there is none. In the early days, our poor, little Goverment needed all the help it could get. These days, I have a hard time envisioning Congress granting anyone the right to build their own USS Enterprise. Congress alone declares war....don't think they're gonna want our help. Was it on the minds of those who sat around the non-air conditioned chambers where the verbiage of the 2nd. amendment was haggled over? Don't think so. These folks were thinking about standing groups of men, both for homeland security (hmmm...sounds familiar) and for possible foolery undertaken by the boys in Washington. Doesn't really matter what anyone had on their lawn either....the aristocracy of the day were bound by very few laws.

Sbryce - You asked a couple of questions in your post. Does the 2nd. amendment say you can own a cannon? I say no (see above). Someone serving in a Militia, as it was defined in the day of those who wrote the amendment, wouldn't be able to "bear" a cannon. The amendment clearly intended for you to have weapons that you could keep and then bear as a part of a Militia. However, if a cannon existed that you could indeed "bear" (i.e. transport with you without the aid of others or devices), it would be a little less cut and dry. Does it say you can own a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher? Hmmmm....that is a bit tougher. You can keep it and you can bear it. I would have to lean towards the spirit of the amendment being in favor of your "right" to do so. Handguns, rifles, shotguns, machine guns, grenades, small rocket launched weaponry, fully automatic weapons....I believe all of these fit the intention of the amendment and should not be "infringed". Heavy artillery, large bombs, things that couldn't reasonably be carried (i.e. cannon) just don't fit what was intended. If you're hoping for the 2nd. amendment to give you the right to have any weapon of any description in your arsenal...you're not only going to be disappointed, you also have an unrealistic perception of what our common goal should be.

Again, embrace the whole amendment and quit trying to explain away the first half of it. Use it to your advantage. Start liking the word Militia. And, much more importantly, argue from logic and not from emotion and/or unsupportable babble. We'll win much more easily that way. It's the kind of sound reasoning the anti-gunners fear most.

I want to preserve the gun rights that are relevant to 99.9% of us as much as anyone here. I also may understand the game better than most. Use what's there to your advantage. If you do, and take the blinders off, we really can't lose.
 

Aion

New member
The Constitution gives congress the power to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal; look up what those are.
Actually, I know what they are. (I also know they're no longer issued. Though I've met quite a few people who'd love to become Privateers. :) )

Indy: Respectfully disagree. It says "the right of the people," NOT "the right of the state."

-Aion
 

Indy_SIG

New member
Indy: Respectfully disagree. It says "the right of the people," NOT "the right of the state."

Aion - Believe it or not, we really are on the same side of this argument.

But....everyone needs to quit playing the "words game" with the amendment. Accept the whole thing. So what it says "people" and not "state"? It means nothing. Did you follow any of what I explained?

If our battle is to be fought by trying to bend the light on certain words in order to make the amendment say what we want it to say....we've already lost. The really sad part...we don't need to be doing it. Read my post again. Slowly. Think about what it says. Leave your personal bias outside. Build a logical, defensible argument. That's how we win. Not by pointing out that "people" is not "state". It means absolutely nothing. Any Sophomore debate team member would destroy such an argument without working up a sweat. We must do better.

not a flame Aion.....rather, a plea for help. We all need to fight a better fight.
 

sbryce

New member
Indy,

In the newsgroup I already pretty much made the points you brought up. I argued that since the 2nd protects our right to keep and bear arms because a citizen militia is necessary to preserve a free state, then the arms that are customarily born by a member of the military are the arms the 2nd is speaking of. That is why I include machine guns, explosives and shoulder mounted rockets.

What I was wondering is whether the definition of "bear" is broader than those arms which can be carried in ones hands without assistance. If in the early history of the US civilian owned artillery, warships etc were used to fight wars, it would support the argument that "bear" means more than just "carry in your hands."
 

vabearhunter

New member
I know for a fact that you can own a cannon today. I am a Civil war artillery reenactor and the battery to which I belong has three cannon that are privately held. We have a 12 pound Napolean, a solid bronze 12 pound field Howitzer, and a 10 pound parrot rifle. We use them to portray a Confederate Artillery Battery and reenact battles all over the Virginia, Maryland, Tennessee, and West Virginia area. We fire a blank round that consists of 3 ounces of cannon grade powder. They will however, fire solid shot or canister rounds.

These cannon run in the price range of $20,000 to $45,000.
 

David Park

New member
A better question would be, under what authority does the federal government have the power to limit the arms available to the people? I just skimmed the Constitution, and I found no such authority or power. Congress does have the implied power to prevent the States from "keep[ing] Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace" but that would seem to apply only to standing armies of the several States, not the citizen Militia. Congress also has the power "to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia" but it does not say that only the Militia can be armed. Privately-owned weapons, such as the cannon mentioned by vabearhunter, are still perfectly legal and outside of the government's power.

I think both sides of the "gun control" debate focus too much on the details of the 2nd Amendment. It doesn't allow or deny various classes of weapons. All it says is, the people should be able to own and possibly carry arms to provide for the common defense, and the federal government should do nothing to infringe on that right. It only limits the government, not the people. In other words, any sort of federal "gun control" is clearly unconstitutional. The only time the feds should get involved would be if some group decided to use their arms to attack the government, which could be a case of treason.

The claimed purpose of "gun control" is to reduce crime and accidental deaths. Prosecution of crimes is clearly left to the several States. If any "gun control" is possible, it must happen at the state level. Of course, many state constitutions also include RKBA clauses, which makes the task of the gun-banners more difficult. However, if they want to restrict the ownership or carry of certain weapons, they should not try to argue that the law does not mean what it says, but instead try to get the law changed to say what they want.

Today, many people seem to feel that the federal government is naturally all-powerful, unlike the severely limited government intended by the Founders. I suggest that this is the root of most of our current problems.
 

Carbon_15

New member
I whole-heartedly agree...but why arent unconstitutional gun controle laws overturned. If you desided to disregard the unconstitutional laws (or duty acording to the Signers) how could you legaly be prosecuted. A federal gun controle law is no more legal or binding then my own household rules.
As you guys have said, the bill of right simply places limitations on the federal government, not graciously dole out right to the people as most of the general public think.
 

Pepperbox

New member
It still amazes me that there are some who believe that the 2nd amendment gives them a right.

The 2nd gives me no right. I have such a right 'by right'.

The 2nd admonishes government not to touch it and also warns of what entity is entitled to defend against abridgement, of any right.

A right cannot be legislated. A right can be lost for improper application by one so possessing;murder, robbery... crimes against person or property where violence or threat of violence is used.

JMO for what it's worth. ;)
 

David Park

New member
why arent unconstitutional gun controle laws overturned
Why does Vermont have so few "gun control" laws? Because a hundred years ago or so, when the first "gun control" was proposed, the people jumped up and shouted, "That violates our rights!" The Vermont constitution says "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State" and it's taken at face value, allowing concealed carry without a permit. They nipped the problem in the bud.

The Miller case could have done the same thing on the federal level, if NFA '34 had been found unconstitutional, but there was basically no argument presented for the defense so the case set a bad precedent. That led to 65 years of bogus legal decisions and compromises of our rights. We can still turn things around, but it's a lot harder to climb back up the slippery slope than it is to avoid sliding down.
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
The Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company of Boston exists today as mainly a collector's society, but at one time it really did have its own then-state of the art cannon. So did many other privately raised artillery companies, many of which joined one side or the other and fought in the Civil War. The reason they died out as functioning artillery units was not so much laws, but the cost of the weaponry. No private group could afford, let's say, a self-propelled 8" gun today.

Seriously, no rational person thinks the Second Amendment is absolute and that everyone has an unlimited right to own a gun. Should a six year old be able to buy a gun? A convicted felon? An escaped convict? We accept restrictions on other rights. Even the most basic right, the right to vote, has restrictions, like age, registration, and residence.

The question has never been whether the state, in its normal and constitutional exercise of police power, has the right to impose restrictions, it is on how far those restrictions can limit the basic right. It is also on the role of the federal government, which stretches the power to tax and control interstate commerce to cover about anything that it wants to do.

I think this is an area of attack on gun laws which has not been sufficiently explored. There are limits on federal power, and recent court decisions have recognized them. We need to work to restrain and reverse that power grab.

Jim
 

ahenry

New member
Gun rights advocates often argue that the first half of the amendment is irrelevant to the second half. That the "right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" part can stand alone. Nonsense.
Didn’t you just up and run from this same discussion because you weren’t able/willing to form a proper rebuttal to the points that several posters had made? I find it a little odd that you would avoid one discussion, only to restate your original opinion, again without substantiation, in another discussion. Of course, if you aren’t able to provide factual evidence of your belief, it isn’t really so odd...

The point I tirelessly try to pound into the sometimes seemingly feeble minds of my fellow gun enthusiasts is this...
I have managed to attempt a discussion of this point with you without resorting to comments on your mental abilities, despite whatever credence you might lend to the idea that it is not us who have the “seemingly feeble minds”.

Again, embrace the whole amendment and quit trying to explain away the first half of it. Use it to your advantage. Start liking the word Militia. And, much more importantly, argue from logic and not from emotion and/or unsupportable babble. We'll win much more easily that way. It's the kind of sound reasoning the anti-gunners fear most.
This is the epitome of ironic. In our last discussion, which one of us had factual substantiation, and which one did nothing but state nonfactual opinion?

Any Sophomore debate team member would destroy such an argument without working up a sweat.
Feel free to “destroy” the argument that I presented the first time, I am still waiting for any form of a rebuttal. In case you have forgotten what was said, here is the link. Please read it carefully. Set aside you personal bias and think about it. Read the words of our Founding generation. Grasp what their ideas and thoughts were, then try to understand why they would word the amendment the way they did. It all makes good sense if you really know what is going on.

This time don’t run away, it just makes you seem uninformed (but perhaps you don’t need any help in that department). I am not trying to belittle you, but come on! If there is a disagreement on a particular point have the guts to actually debate the point. Some sound points were made by several of us. If you are actually interested in either "enlightening" us from your superior knowledge, or are open to the fact that you might be wrong you would continue the debate like a man.
 

WilderBill

New member
I expect that some people did privatly own cannons during the revolutionary war. I base this guess on the fact that some people with the money and influence to do so would declare themselves a colonel or general or something and then proceede to recruit, train, pay and lead there own unit.
At the time the army was glad they did, since they needed all the help they could get.

As I understand it, you can own your own cannon as long as it is a muzzle loader. The Parrot mentioned earlier would be an exception to that, maybe because of it being black powder or the vintage of it or historical significance.
The things that would most limit one from owning a connon are:
Where the heck do you get one?
If you find one it IS gonna cost you!
If you had it, just how much powder would it burn every time you touched it off. (Ought to make .50 BMG look cheap!)
When was the last time you saw cannon balls at your local gun store?
Do you really think that your local rifle range would let you fire it there?
Most of all - how many of us would even think to want one?

All that aside. It can be done.
One of my friends told me about one night when he and his coworkers were sitting around drinking after work in a machine shop and decided to bore a 2" hole in a 4" x 6' peice of steel round stock, add a small hole near the breech and turn a slightly less than 2' "bullet" for it.
Around dawn they had come up with a handful of black powder. chained it to a stump in the middle of nowhere and discovered that it did indeed work quite well, thank you very much!
I don't think it was ever fired again, but it could have been.
I also don't recomend this exact procedure to anyone.
As I have said before, alcohol and gunpowder don't mix well.

If you really wanted to do it, some research and thought would be in order!

If anyone else has any information on reinactment or other cannon owning/firing please post it! This could get interesting!
:D :cool:
 
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