Private Gun sales-- Warning!

[Sevens]

I'll share with you a very recent thread in my local state forum. This particular forum is based around concealed and open carry, and the laws in the state of Ohio. We are a grass roots group that work to change Ohio laws for the betterment of all Pro-2A folks. On our forum, what we do most is to share with each other and learn with each other precisely what the laws are and how to live completely within them, and how we go about properly changing them.

This was posted yesterday afternoon by one of our guys.

I have a firearm up in the FS/FT forums and also have it listed on armslist. I was contacted through armslist about it and spoke with the guy on the phone. After working out all the details of the sale itself, price, etc the conversation took the following turn.

Him: "You're not a dealer or anything, no paperwork right?"
Me: "Well, I will need to see a Driver's License or something just to make sure you're an Ohio resident....Are you allowed to buy and own guns?"
*silence*
Me: "You still there?"
Him: "Yeah. I'm not sure really."
Me: "What do you mean you're not sure?"
Him: "Well I don't think I could pass the background check. Is that a problem?"
Me: "Yes thats a problem, I'm sorry but I'm not going to be willing to sell it to you."
Him: "Why not?"
Me: "None of my business, but would you mind telling me what you did?"
*silence*
Me: "Ohio law says I cannot knowingly provide a firearm to what is considered a Prohibited Person which you are telling me you might be"
*silence*
Me: "Thanks for your interest, I think you should talk to a lawyer before trying to buy a gun from anyone"

At this point he made an offer significantly higher than my asking price which I declined. I wished him well and hung up.

Interesting enough all on it's own, I suppose... UNTIL:
Posted one hour later by another regular from our group:

I had the same exact converasation with a fella from glocktalk today at just after 6.
(another forum guy) was over and heard the whole thing, then PMd me later and told me to check this thread.

I texted you my guys number to see if it is the same Akronite.

And back from the original poster:

Per our Texts, it was the same guy - just to keep everyone else up to date.

---------------------------------------------------
Folks, what we've got here is either a really dense buyer, attempting not only to do something illegal, but also REALLY stupid that he keeps asking and pointing out the fact that he wants to do this "without paperwork" or background check.

Or... more likely...
It's someone up to no good, trying to entrap a good guy in to some nefarious illegal activity.

And just so we are all on the same page, here is what it required to privately sell a handgun in Ohio.
--both seller and buyer MUST be Ohio residents
--buyer must be 21 years of age or older (it's assumed that seller is simply because he's possessing a handgun)
--seller must have NO REASON to believe that he is selling a firearm to a prohibited buyer

There is absolutely no legal need for the involvement of any FFL, no legal requirement for any sort of a background check and there is no requirement for any paperwork of any sort, nor any excess information to be exchanged.

Some people elect to do that... most of us do not.

Now, the fact that the same guy happens to hit up two folks from the same area both listing guns for sale with the same schtick, and within hours? And he doesn't learn from the first conversation that maybe he shouldn't ask about "passing a background check" and he asks the next guy?

And the major, major red flag comes at the end when he offers MORE money than what was agreed upon?

So we are thinking that it's some local anti-gun group, or some out-of-state Bloomberg-type of jerk... or the BATFE with some extra time on their hands.

In any case, know your state laws and if it smells rotten, it's probably rotten.

Anyone else have this happen to them?

 

[overkill0084]

Did anyone get the guy's name? Your local LE folks might have more than a passing interest in this person. Assuming he's not some sort of plant, of course.

 

[rdmallory]

Yes,

The last guy I sold a rifle to said he did not know if he could pass a background check. I took him to a FFL and had the FFL do a background check and transfer the rifle. He passed without an issue.

I do not want to sell a firearm that ends up on the 6 oclock news.

Doug

 

[hermannr]

That the person was willing to push the price up would make me believe he was a plant for a sting rather than a legit purchaser (even a purchaser that actually could not pass the background check)

Why? A criminal is not going to tell you he is a disqualified person, unless he is extremely stupid.

You ought to get this guys number and find out if he is on Bloomberg's payroll.

 

[Sevens]

I don't know if they got his name... they both obviously had his number because it matched up between them.

Did anyone get the guy's name? Your local LE folks might have more than a passing interest in this person. Assuming he's not some sort of plant, of course.

Actually, that's interesting to me. Because if he was a BATFE or some other LEO plant, then yeah, it would simply wither to nothing. But if it was a Bloomberg type, I'd LOVE to see one of those idiots get pulled backwards in to a reverse sting... where it's law enforcement that is offering the sale and Mr. B'berg representative tries to purchase all the while stating that he's prohibited.

Got to be something you can charge the guy with -- and for certain, you could nail him to the wall if he were a resident of New York state and not Ohio.

 

[Skans]

This doesn't sound like an anti-gun group. First, it's not going to make national news or any news for that matter if some dumb-Joe believes he is selling a gun to a criminal. Heck, look at ATF - they have armed the Mexican Drug gangs through their own illegal gun sales, and how much do you here about this in the media? Second, the person/people doing this know too much about guns and gun laws to be any ant-gun group. Those people are too guntarded to pull this off without saying something hilariously stupid.

It's probably some federal agency, or could even be a state agency desperately looking to catch someone willing to sell guns to criminals.

 

[Stressfire]

I don't know if they got his name... they both obviously had his number because it matched up between them.

You could always try cross-checking the phone number (if its a land line) in a Dickman criss-cross directory - will give you name (person or organization) and address if you care to report or at least put a name to the number.

 

[45Gunner]

I have sold only two guns privately but one must understand when doing so they must know the laws of their State and must have something to CYA. I use the following form:

FIREARM BILL OF SALE
Buyer certifies that they are not restricted or forbidden by law to own a firearm and buyer states that he/she:
• Has NEVER been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
• Is NOT a fugitive from justice.
• Is NOT an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
• Has NEVER been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
• Is NOT an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa.
• Has NOT been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
• Having been a citizen of the United states, has NEVER renounced his or her citizenship.
• Is NOT subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
• Has NOT been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
• CAN lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.
• Is NOT a person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
I truthfully state that I AM NOT a person who cannot legally buy, receive, and posses firearms and/or ammunition.
Full Name _________________________________________ Signature _______________________________________
Firearm(s) sold
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Buyer Seller
(NAME) (NAME)
(ADDRESS) (ADDRESS)
(DL) (DL)
(CWL) (CWL)
(Contact #) (Contact #)
I understand the firearm is sold AS-IS and no warranty has been implied or given. Firearm should be inspected by a
competent gunsmith prior to using. Seller not responsible for any damages incurred or caused by the use of this firearm.
Sale Conditions: _____________________________________________________________________________________
Buyer Signature:_________________________________ Seller Signature:_____________________________________
Sale Date

 

[Stressfire]

45gunner, the only time I have bought privately I have used a form similar to that, and I was buying from my mother in law.

She shot 50 rounds out of it and decided she didn't like it - that's where I got my Beretta 92

Actually, I think you linked a PDF version of that form awhile back & that's what I used

 

[oneounceload]

If you talked to him, you have his phone number - call your local agency and tell him them someone is trying to illegally acquire guns - that usually gets their attention. If they do nothing, you now know it was some form of sting from some agency

 

[rookie5.56]

2 guns I have sold I asked a shop at the show for one of there forms, I need to get one to make copies. You can't call it in like they can but one thinks if you get all the information, and they fill it out and sign off on it. Youl'd be protecting yourself.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

While I understand the laws and I would not want to see anyone sell to a prohibited person, I also understand that some people prefer to keep their personal information ... personal. If I want to fill out a 4473 I'll buy from an FFL. If a private seller asks me to fill out a 4473, I'll probably dies on the spot from laughing so hard. I would never consider filling out a 4473 for anyone other than an FFL, and I actually think it's illegal for anyone other than an FFL to ask for it.

Beyond the 4473, if I'm the buyer I don't object to showing the seller my permit to prove I'm not a prohibited person and that I'm a resident of the same state, but ... you want to write down my info? Deal's off. If I wanted a paper trail I'd be in a gun shop. (Which, incidentally, is where I buy and sell all firearms anyway.)

 

[rookie5.56]

then no matter how much you wanted the firearm I would not sell it to you. Because it is no different than a bill of sale where you check out that your legally allowed to obtain a firearm. It is no where illegal because you are volunteering the information by you putting the information down! No one is forcing you!

 

[LaCane]

It is my understanding, and I can't quote word for word, but basically if you(seller) have no knowledge or reason why someone (buyer) should not be able to buy your gun, then you are under no obligation to ask for proof that the buyer can not. In other words, you can not be held liable or responsible if you sell a gun to a stranger in your home state who later turns out to be a felon from another state. You had no knowledge of those facts prior to the sale. By asking someone to even show you their ID, (unless you have "reasonable" concerns about age, or if you saw him get out of the passenger side of a vehicle with out of state plates) you are not doing anything that is any different than just selling it to him, no questions asked. Asking this person to fill out a questionare and sign it...well, if he is a felon and say's he is not by signing your paper, that does not get him off the hook if he is caught, nor does it make you any more or less guilty than if you did not ask him to sign it. It all comes down to ...did the seller have REASON to believe that buyer is not legally able to purchase the weapon. It IS however your responsibility to know the law as to know what you have to do to cover your own rear end. Check out the wording on BATF website and you will see about ..."reason to believe".

 

[oneounceload]

2 guns I have sold I asked a shop at the show for one of there forms, I need to get one to make copies. You can't call it in like they can but one thinks if you get all the information, and they fill it out and sign off on it. Youl'd be protecting yourself.

Protecting yourself from what?

IF it is legal for you to do FTF sales, and you have made a REASONABLE attempt to ensure that the person is a resident and not prohibited - you have met the letter and intent of the law

You must be fairly young - it wasn't that long ago you sold guns at garage sales and through ads in the papers with cash in hand

NOT a big deal - let's stop feeding the antis and trying to make it something more complicated than buying a lawnmower at a garage sale.....

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I would not fill out a form for a private gun sale. Period. I don't care what you have or how cheap it is. No way. I have a drivers license and a handgun permit that you can look at if you want. If that's not enough for you, stuff it.

I would also not sell a gun to anyone that I had indication was not allowed to own it and I would flat out ask if it was a long gun and obviously want to see a permit for a handgun. I would be embarrassed to ask someone to fill out a form and would not consider doing so.

 

[Spats McGee]

@ AB and rookie5.56 -- I don't remember off the top of my head if it's illegal for a non-FFL to use the 4473, but I suspect that it is. In any event, the 4473 says right on it that it "should only be used for sales or transfers of firearms where the seller is licensed under" 18 U.S.C. ss921-931.

As for me, if I'm buying from a private party, I don't mind showing them my CHCL, but I'm not real interested in strangers making written records of my home address, thankyouverymuch.

 

[medalguy]

Same deal here. I have absolutely NO interest in giving my personal information to someone I don't know, and I won't allow an unknown individual to write down any of my personal information from my driver's license or my CHL. Frankly it's none of their business.

If I'm selling a gun, which I don't do very often, I ask the potential buyer if he's a resident of my state, and I try to take a peek at his license plates to verify this. I also ask if he has a CHL or if he's legally able to acquire a firearm. If so, we're good to go.

If I'm buying a gun, I'll tell the seller I'm a legal resident of my state and SHOW him my DL and CHL but won't allow anything to be copied from either. I'll give him my name if he wants it but that's all.

I'm also not so terribly interested in buying any kind of firearm that I would fill out one of those silly forms. They mean exactly nothing anyway.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"A criminal is not going to tell you he is a disqualified person, unless he is extremely stupid."

Criminals are, by and large, extremely stupid.

When I was selling guns at a gun shop I had several answer yes to disqualification questions and, when asked about it, again state (for various reasons) that yes, they had done something that would disqualify them.

 

[TXAZ]

Good call

Good call. You're not obligated to sell anything to anyone if you don't feel like it, and certainly if you have questions. I had one prospect that showed up at my door to buy a handgun one day. (last time I put my address in a gun ad) He seemed young so I asked his age. He said just turned 18, then told me loudly in front of his buddy "YOU HAVE TO SELL IT TO ME" (Him). Didn't happen, almost called the cops he was pretty persistent.

Good call.