I have a really nice condition pattern 1917 Enfield in 30-06. I was at the range today and I noticed that a few of the primers appeared to be popping out of the casing a little bit, maybe one or two hundredths of an inch. This did not happen with every cartridge, and on some it popped more than others. I have fired the gun plenty of times before and nothing bad has happened. I did notice before that the primers looked a little weird but never payed attention to it until now. I was using Hornady brass with 45gr of Varget behind a 150gr FMJ. This load has no issues when fired in my M1. I am guessing this is an issue with headspace. I have read before that Endfields can have really loose chambers. Is this normal? Do you think I can keep shooting the gun? Also is there anything that can be done about it? I would not be willing to get it rebarreled since everything is original and really nice.
Primers bulging out when fired from Enfield P17.
- Thread starter chasep255
- Start date
That load is very mild (under 33,000 psi). The brass is not stretching enough to re-seat the primers.
(All primers back out... but then the brass stretches under pressure re-seat them).,
If you are reloading at that pressure, just partially size to the point that the bolt will just close on the case.*
Problem solved (and so too case life)
*
BTW: Get a Headspace gauge/comparator and know what the dimension is.
tango1niner
New member
I'm hoping you meant primers are hanging out a few " thousandths " as a few " hundredths "
is an awful lot of excessive headspace...
Since the load is on the mild side according to mehavey another option may be when seating bullet to hang it out just enough to engage rifling a little. Doing this will keep the case head against the bolt face and form the brass to your chamber when you fire. From then on only " neck size " that brass.
is an awful lot of excessive headspace...
Since the load is on the mild side according to mehavey another option may be when seating bullet to hang it out just enough to engage rifling a little. Doing this will keep the case head against the bolt face and form the brass to your chamber when you fire. From then on only " neck size " that brass.
To put it a bit more clearly.
The M1 and your 1917 have different chambers.
Its better to have dedicated brass (different head stamps works well) for each one.
With the comparator gauge, you can see what the fired shoulder position is and then adjust the dies to bump it back .002 or .003 (bump back varies, I don't shoot for .001)
You can do a check and see if the M1 chamber is really close to the 1917 chamber by checking the shoulder length datum (measurement ) on fired cases from each one (use 5 each and average)
I have never worked with an M1 so no idea what those run head space wise.
I do have 5 1917s and each one of those (as well as others sold) have very long head space, almost to field reject and these are good chambers and low use (if any) barrels.
The M1 and your 1917 have different chambers.
Its better to have dedicated brass (different head stamps works well) for each one.
With the comparator gauge, you can see what the fired shoulder position is and then adjust the dies to bump it back .002 or .003 (bump back varies, I don't shoot for .001)
You can do a check and see if the M1 chamber is really close to the 1917 chamber by checking the shoulder length datum (measurement ) on fired cases from each one (use 5 each and average)
I have never worked with an M1 so no idea what those run head space wise.
I do have 5 1917s and each one of those (as well as others sold) have very long head space, almost to field reject and these are good chambers and low use (if any) barrels.
One or two hundredths of an inch is 10 or 20 thou. That's a lot of backing out. Primers backing out is one sign of excess headspace. Any issues opening the bolt or with extraction?
The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge is not a headspace gauge. Cartridges do not have headspace. Rifles have headspace.
45 grains of Varget is 2 grains below current minimum for a 150. Isn't likely the cause of excess pressure being just 2 grains though.
The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge is not a headspace gauge. Cartridges do not have headspace. Rifles have headspace.
45 grains of Varget is 2 grains below current minimum for a 150. Isn't likely the cause of excess pressure being just 2 grains though.
Yes, they do have a headspace dimension
(Very clearly specified in SAAMI drawings)
That said, if the OP is truly & fully full-length resizing each time, then the case headspace dimension/shoulder position is obviously being pushed back to where it's "not insignificantly" shorter that the chamber -- hence the primer backing/staying out when fired.
Solution? Size to fit that rifle's chamber.
(and Hornady's Headspace comparator
lets you make that a repeatable science)
.
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This explains in more detail the primer re-seating as the casehead stretches after ignition as discussed above, good read:
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/ballistic-resources/internal-ballistics
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/ballistic-resources/internal-ballistics
No, cases do not have head space, I believe that is all it would take to blow the reloaders mind. I can not imagine a reloader telling another reloader to increase the head space of the case or reduce the head space of the chamber. My cases do not have head space, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the case shoulder to the case head.
the case does have dimensions, when it comes to length it has two; one from the datum to the end of the neck and another from the datum to the case head. Reloaders should have learned this information beginning in the late '30s.
The Wilson case gage is a datum based tool, this information has been unknown to reloaders from the beginning. Many reloaders got all giggly about a digital head space gage, none of them understood the digital head space gage was a dial indicator stand AKA a comparator. Reloaders thinking the dial indicator stand was a head space gage started renaming everything.
F. Guffey
And then there is that Hornady link: the firing pin strikes the primer and drives the case forward etc. etc. and that ladies and gentleman gives it head space and now the ladies and gentlemen have three head spaces
I don't: My chamber has head space, my cases has a length that is measure from the datum to the case head and between the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face I have 'CLEARENSE' for the case. Because I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel I do not have a lot of clearance.
I do not wait until I fire a case to determine the difference in length between the case and chamber I size the case to fit and then fire, somewhere out here there is a very small group of reloaders that say they form first and then fire.
F. Guffey
I don't: My chamber has head space, my cases has a length that is measure from the datum to the case head and between the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face I have 'CLEARENSE' for the case. Because I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel I do not have a lot of clearance.
I do not wait until I fire a case to determine the difference in length between the case and chamber I size the case to fit and then fire, somewhere out here there is a very small group of reloaders that say they form first and then fire.
F. Guffey
I have a M1917, it has a chamber that is .016" longer than a full length sized case (same thing as a factory/over the counter/new ammo).
Longer? It is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. For those that keep up with such stuff that is .011" longer than a go=gage length chamber. To eliminate all of that case travel I add .014" to the length of the case between the shoulder/datum to the case head to off set the length of the chamber, and it is not magic but the .014" added between the shoulder to the case head give the 'magic' .002" clearance.
F. Guffey
Well the reality is that the interplay of SAMMI, Military, cartridges not having head space vs barrels makes it in the real world nothing more than an exercise in semantics. A cartridge in a longer chamber and or low pressure and we can have a primer issue.
No different than P17. No such creature exists but it is well understood that it refers to a Model of 1917 30 caliber (which by then was understood to be -06 even though 30 caliber refereed to Kraig as well as 03 cartridge at one time or another ) as originally chambered.
Of course latter on 30 caliber became 7.62 NATO so............
No different than P17. No such creature exists but it is well understood that it refers to a Model of 1917 30 caliber (which by then was understood to be -06 even though 30 caliber refereed to Kraig as well as 03 cartridge at one time or another ) as originally chambered.
Of course latter on 30 caliber became 7.62 NATO so............
You can say that, it makes no sense, I have pointed out that reloaders at Hornady can say anything they choose because too many reloaders on reloading forums struggle to keep up.
One more time, I fired 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm06 chamber. And then there are reloader that can not keep up. When I fired the case everyone thought the case would suffer case head separation because they thought the firing pin drove the case forward; that did not happen. And they thought they could drive the shoulder forward, the shoulder on my cases did not move. They also believe/think they can bump the shoulder back, again, mu shoulder did not move and then there is all of that talk about stretch this and stretch that.
When I pulled the trigger the case was held to the rear of the chamber with the clearance in front. When the case expanded the case filled the chamber, the case formed to the chamber, the case increased in length between the shoulder of the case to the case head.
the case did not stretch between the case head and case body but you insist the case was driven forward, had the case been driven forward the case head would have separated because the case body locked onto the chamber.
And then? The length of the case from the shoulder to the case head increased in length .227" but the case decreased in length from the end of the neck to the case head to the point there was only a hint of a neck. The case length shortened over .225"
So? if there was any truth to what you claim there would be no way to explain the sequence of events.
And I have suggest to reloaders to scribe the case body/shoulder juncture before they to off talking in lofty terms about things they do not understand.
F. Guffey
And I have said; "Think about it", "Is there a remote chance you reloaders are leaving out one step in the events that happens between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel?"
I can not even get a reloader to look under the reloading bench to check Rock Chuckers when the linkage gets tangled up.
F. Guffey
Just for kicks add a bullet, after busting the primer drive the bullet back into the case before swinging the cylinder out. A reloader was making a desperate effort of pull the hammer back, or pull the trigger, or rotate his cylinder with no success. He was being protected from his worst enemy; himself.
I cleared my table and the shooter on the other side of him cleared his table and started helping him, We cleared his pistol, after clearing his pistol he immediately started loading 6 more rounds. In our efforts to help him we upset the reloader, he got mad and left. I was concerned; if he loaded a case with no powder did the next case have too much powder?
F. Guffey
And I said "you can say that"; that does not make it true. Hornady was calming head space was increased between the bolt face and case head. And I suggested one more head space added to the reloaders 2 other head spaces would be more head spaces than the reloader could keep up with.
The clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber did not decrease because my case was not driven forward by the firing pin. EVENTHOUGH: Before I pulled the trigger there was .227" clearance. If the case was not driven forward the clearance between the case head and bolt face did not increase. And then there is that part you can not keep up with; during all of the excitement the case locked onto the chamber, Back to the part about the sequence of events; the case did not stretch between the case head and case body because the shoulder of the case was not driven forward to the shoulder of the chamber.
I looked at the case, the case had only the hint of a neck, it is like hot horse shoes, it does not take me long to look at them. Had the case been driven forward the length of the neck would not have changed (much).
Again: I suggest there are many things that happen to the case between pulling the trigger and the bullet taking off down the barrel the reloader does not understand.
F. Guffey
tango1niner
New member
Hahaha, looks like the original poster hasn't been back since his post. You guys scared him off or corn-fused the snot out of him. Bunch of old curmudgeons...
chasep255, Seat the bullet in a full sized case so bullet just barely engages the rifling. You will feel resistance when closing the bolt. On closing the bolt this will hold the case head against the bolt face. Fire...
The next time you size THAT case do as "mehavey" said in post #3 or neck size only (as I said in post#4) and seat the bullet to your normal seating depth (off the rifling). Use this specially sized brass in that rifle only. You will now have a fire formed case for that chamber.
chasep255, Seat the bullet in a full sized case so bullet just barely engages the rifling. You will feel resistance when closing the bolt. On closing the bolt this will hold the case head against the bolt face. Fire...
The next time you size THAT case do as "mehavey" said in post #3 or neck size only (as I said in post#4) and seat the bullet to your normal seating depth (off the rifling). Use this specially sized brass in that rifle only. You will now have a fire formed case for that chamber.