Primer too deep

[Longshot4]

I don't recall ever having a primer set so deep that the firing pin wasn't able to fire it. As I was resizing some 400 222 cases I found a old round that was forgotten. a fully loaded 222 round with a copper primer that was struck and was recessed in the pocket. I suspect the sides of the primer were short or the primer pocket was too deep witch would mean it were the first time the case were loaded. Now to take it apart. I suspect the kinetic bullet hammer will be a pain for the old hands. Perhaps I can safely try to fire it again into a plastic 5 gal. Bucket of sand? I might be able to find a collet puller. It's been a long time sense I've had this kind of a issue. So what do you think about the bucket trick? Should it hold up to the 222.

 

[Bart B.]

I would not try to fire that round.

Instead, get a good pair of pliers, remove die from your press, put the round in its shellholder, raise the round until the bullet is above the die threaded top, hold the pliers horizontally resting on the top of the press (not touching the threads), grab the bullet with the pliers then hold it tight, lower the ram to pull the bullet out. Toss that bullet in the trash.

Dump the powder out of the case then deprime it.

If this doesn't work, properly dispose of that round safely. It's not worth saving in my opinion.

 

[Longshot4]

Thanks Bart. I will do as you described.

 

[chiefr]

Most of your modern reloading equipment will not allow primers to be seated too deep, however if something wears or becomes out of adjustment it can happen.
Some MILSURP and foreign ammo you encounter will have the primer set deeper than normal, The problem manifests itself when you fire this ammo in a rifle and notice FTF and light firing pin strikes.

 

[Longshot4]

Well here is a update to what I thought was going on. I pulled the bullet with the pliers and press. Wow it can't get any simpler than that and it was very fast. Thanks to Bart's experience. So I tossed the bullet and found no powder. Xxx! So some how and I haven't a clue what really happened or even what year but I must of blinked when I was loading the case. It has been my most cautionary measure through the years not to be disturbed when loading. Well it happened. The primer not receiving the back pressure must be why it looked like it was seated too deep. I haven't had a firing pin problem after all. So when knocking out the fired primer I sized the case neck to the same setting as the rest of the cases and didn't loose the case. Thanks again

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Actually, that doesn't make much sense.

A primer that fires in a case with no powder will be pushed OUT of the pocket, it won't stay deep.

There's a comparatively large explosion and that tiny little hole to let it into the case. The reason primers are ordinarily flush after firing is because the whole primer/case assembly is jammed against the breach-face as pressure builds. Without that pressure, the primer will stick OUT of the pocket.

I surmise that what you have there is an intentionally loaded Dummy Round. It had been previously fired and was used to test bullet seating depth or some such thing. In the course of events, the primer was seated deeper.

 

[Bart B.]

It makes sense to me. It sure happened to the OP. Me, too.

I once loaded 44 rounds in a 7.62 NATO Garand to get 22 of their bullets to leave the barrel in a long range match. They were all supposed to have 44 grains of IMR4320 under a Sierra 190. None of the "clicker's" bullets left the case mouth. They were all seated to about the same depth as other live rounds. No effort at all to eject them intact from the Garand.

That evening, I checked the remaining 18 rounds from the boxes issued to me for weight. 8 of them weighed about 44 grains less than the others. Took me exactly 7.62 microseconds to figure out what happened. Pulled a few of the clicker's bullets and sure enough; no powder. Heel of the bullets were black with primer residue.

I think the other USN Team members arranged this episode with the guy who loaded our ammo for us. But I got even with them by winning that match in windy conditions shooting a 98-17V on the old C target at 1000 yards. Best "ball and dummy" exercise I ever went through.

Handgun bullets typically go out and into the rifling with primer only firing. But rifle cases have more room inside so the pressure inside's much less.

This is why electric driven machine guns don't stop firing when a case with no powder gets chambered and the firing pin fires their primer; that round's pulled out intact and the gun keeps on firing.

Powderless 22 rimfire rounds shoot their bullets 20 inches or more in rifle barrels. Happened to me with an Eley Tenex round whose bullet stopped about 4 inches short of the muzzle in my Anchutz 27" barrel.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

No powder makes sense to me and the bullet may or may not remain seated.

What doesn't make sense to me is this singular round, which just by pure coincidence, has no powder AND the primer is DEEP seated rather than protruding as I would expect for a primer only ignition, indicates to me that something else is happening.

 

[Bart B.]

Brian, I've popped dozens of rifle primers in empty cases and all went deep into pockets. Small rifle and large rifle types all stayed deep.

Pistol primers typically so popped end up sticking out past the case head.

The difference is the forces of the firing pin springs holding pins against fired primers; little for pistols, lots for rifles. Prime some empty cases and see for yourselves.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I'll have to take your word for it... Primers are too precious.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I'll have to take your word for it... Primers are too precious.

It happens.
Properly sized rifle rounds don't have much room to let the primer back out. When combined with some of the ridiculously powerful striker / firing pin springs in today's rifles, you can get primers that are seated quite deeply by a firing pin strike.


Take a couple of your fired .243 AI cases and drop the firing pin on the primer again. It should punch the primer deeper into the pocket.

 

[Longshot4]

As I. Read your replays I seam to recall but not sure. That load may have been fired this last winter. I may have tried it a second time to try to get to fire. That may be why the primer looked like it did. Caved in the center not in at the sides. You guys are sharp. I envy your skills. Thanks again.

 

[Unclenick]

Bart,

Interesting observation. I'm wondering what the thresholds for spring strength, pin/spring mass, and firing pin protrusion are to make this happen? I know revolver primers will back up hard enough to jam cylinder rotation when shooting plastic or wax bullets. It's not due to the small volume of the case, as the problem goes away when you drill the flash holes out to about 1/8".

 

[Bart B.]

Unclenick, one could get a set of firing pin springs rated at 10% steps below factory spec, then test them on primed cases. This would be good for a given pin's impact force tests.

Use one of David Tubb's titanium firing pins that are adjustable for pin protrusion setting them to .005" or .010" increments past the bolt face for their stopping point. This would do well for primer indentation tests.

Combine these two and you've covered all the bases for rifle cases.

I've drilled pistol case flash holes out to about 1/8 inch, too. Popped primers stayed seated in my S&W Model 19 .357 using .38 Spcl. cases. Standard flash holes kept pressure inside the primer high enough to back them out. That big hole allows primer gasses to escape quickly. Small holes keep the gas inside the primer for a longer time allowing them to get pushed back out a bit. That's how my thinking goes.

It's easy to measure how much force a handgun's firing pin has on the case by hanging weights on their external hammers until they start to raise off their set point. Or use a push scale poking it down the muzzle against the firing pin that's all the way down and not retracted a bit.