Precision Bullets

[OkieGentleman]

First let me state this. I have over the years gotten or seen more good advice from the members of this forum than I thought possible. Some of the technical discussions I have read were way over my head, even if I am a bit of a techno myself, I have still read them for the pleasure of reading them. And that is all the smoke I am going to blow this post.

Now for the problem and the questions.

I have aquired for 45 ACP loading, 1500, 200 gn SWC coated Precision Bullets. Looking at their website they tell you not to seat and crimp in the same die, to use a seperate taper crimp die.

Precision also tells you not to use a roll crimp as it will cut the coating on the bullet resulting in excess smoke and fouling and do not use a Lee Factory Taper Chrimp Die as it will undersize the bullets causing problems.

They say further down the page that if you are using a Lee FTC Die and having problems with smoke and fouling, to switch to a "standard taper crimp" die.
.
Now for the questions. What am I missing here with Precision not wanting a Lee Carbide FTC Die used as the taper crimp? How is it going to "undersize" the bullet? I have an RCBS Taper Crimp die, is it a "standard taper crimp die"? And if so what is the difference between what the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die and the RCBS do? I know looking at the RCBS it seems to be a straight forward piece of equipment while the Lee seems to have more to it ( I hope so after buying it). Am I looking at two different types of "factory crimp". Assistance in understanding this will be appreciated.

 

[flashhole]

The 45 ACP, as with all straight wall semi-auto pistol cartrides, head spaces on the rim of the cartridge. A roll crimp, like you get with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, may cause feeding and cycling problems in your gun. A taper crimp retains the integrity of the sharp edge on the case mouth while applying crimp pressure on the bullet.

The Lee Factory Crimp Die compresses the case against the bullet via a sharp edge (relative term) and a collapsing collet. The sharp edge design works well with bullets that have a crimp groove, like on revolvers or straight wall rifle cases. Yes, you can malform the bullet in a pistol case with the Lee die. Use a taper crimp and all will function as intended.

 

[jaguarxk120]

The lee die resizes the entire case as you crimp the bullet into place. So you are resizing case and bullet to what ever diameter the carbide ring is.

Also when resizing the loaded round you are resizing the bullet seated in the case, and due to case wall variations the bullet will now be a unknown diameter. You will have a good crimp

 

[dickttx]

The .45 ACP Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die IS a taper crimp die, as is the 9mm and .40 (all straight wall cases). The carbide sizer ring in the bottom of the die is the diameter of the SAMMI? specs for each cartridge. It will only touch the case if the case is so large it would not chamber in a spec chamber.
Don't know why Precision says that, but the .45 LCFCD does put a taper crimp on the case, and does not squeeze the bullet. Only speaking from my experience.

 

[frumious]

This is standard stuff...everybody has to hate on the Lee FCD. I used Precision bullets in 9mm and .45ACP with the Lee FCD with no problems whatsoever for probably 2000 rounds each.

That having been said I now use a Redding taper, roll, or profile crimp die in place of the Lee FCD's for all my pistols and revolvers, and my 45-70. I read enough hate of the FCD that it started to rub off, and I *was* having trouble with this one .45 pistol (although I was using cast lead bullets at the time, not Precision bullets), so I thought I'd eliminate the FCD just in case.

As others have said, the Lee FCD performs a "post-sizing" operation (as in "after the bullet has been seated") along with whatever crimping it does. This post-sizing operation is just like the resizing done by the first die (the decapping/resizing die), only there is a bullet in the case now. Some say this has the effect of squeezing (swaging) the bullet down a little in diameter, and therefore contributes to poor bullet fit (in the barrel) and reduced accuracy. Especially with lead bullets. For jacketed/plated bullets the fear is that the jacket/plating will crack as a result of the squeeze. And on top of all of that, the bullet will remain smaller after the squeeze, but the brass will spring back just a little. This contributes to poorer powder ignition, and maybe even bullet setback. And jungle rot. And hives.

I don't know if any of this is proven, but it does all make sense to me. And that is why even though I wasn't seeing any problems I switched to the Redding crimp dies anyway.

BTW Turns out my problem with that one .45 pistol (Beretta PX4 Storm) was just the fact that it was not an accurate pistol (at least mine wasn't). My 1911 shot fine with the same loads, and the Sig 220 I replaced the Beretta with shot fine as well.

And that's the scoop on the Lee FCD.

-cls

 

[amamnn]

My only real gripe about Lee's FCD family is that the rifle version, on which a deserved good reputation was established, is truly a different type of crimp, being a collet--well it was different back then, anyway. There was much praise for it so someone at Lee thought--why not call ALL the Lee crimpers factory crimp dies and sell more? Trouble is, the handgun crimpers are all just the roll or taper crimpers like everyone else's, except for that post sizing business, which I do not like. The next time I needed a roll crimper I got the Redding mentioned above--that one I like a lot.

 

[noylj]

RE: moly-kote pistol bullets
You do not want to damage the coating. This will expose lead and lead to inaccuracy and leading of the barrel. If you seat and crimp at the same time, the bullet will still be moving to be seated as the crimp starts to push the case mouth against the bullet.
The FCD provides an excellent crimp, and it is a taper crimp in .45, 9mm, etc. I have had no issues with the Lee FCD swaging down the Precision bullets (all I currently shoot in .45 ACP are Precision 200gn L-SWCs, so I know the bullet).
Load a couple of inert dummy rounds, apply a very light taper crimp (case mouth at 0.473-0.471"). You should have made some inert rounds to check feeding and chambering and verify that the COL is OK for your gun (I seat to 1.260-1.270"). However, the trail-and-error of seating after removing enough flare/bell to chamber could damage the coating. So you need to make another inert round after your dies are all set . When made, disassemble and inspect the coating on the bullet. If the coating is damaged, you need less crimp.
I don't find any damage and I am using the same set-up I have used for years for H&G #68 cast bullets.

 

[engineermike]

you could always make up a couple or five (Bullets) pull them and check for damage and adjust your taper crimp from there. (Just a thought)

 

[jmorris]

I have shot hundreds of thousands of precision bullets. I don't seat and crimp in the same station as you don't want the bullet to move as the crimp is done, at some point the coating will be damaged.

I use the Lee factory crimp die (in 45 ACP) without any issues.

 

[TXGunNut]

Are we talking about Precision Delta of Ruleville, MS?

 

[dickttx]

No, this:
http://www.precisionbullets.com/