pre 64?
- Thread starter dutchy
- Start date
1964
In 1964 Winchester made a major change in their product line and manufacturing methods. This was done as a cost saving method, to make their guns cheaper for them to build.
Many people didn't like the changes made in several models, and sales (and reputation) suffered for some time.
Basically, in lever guns and shotguns, many of the minor parts were changed from milled (expensive to make) to stamped (cheaper). In some cases the early stamped parts were not entirely satisfactory.
In the case of the Model 70 bolt action rifle, it underwent a major redesign. Winchester redesigned the bolt, dropping the large Mauser style extractor, in favor of a smaller one. They also free floated the barrel, creating an "ugly gap" around the barrel, where previous rifles had the wood closely fitted to the barrel. There were other changes, but those are the most obvious ones.
Initially the smaller extractor was not trusted to be positive, and manufacturers of dangerous game rifles would use only "pre-64" actions. Because of this, and a general feeling that Winchester had "butchered" (cheapened) a fine rifle, pre-64 rifles came to demand a premium price.
This is just a thumbnail explanation, there are whole books on the subject, which go into all the detail you could want.
I have own a post-64 M70 in .22-250, and have no complaints.
In 1964 Winchester made a major change in their product line and manufacturing methods. This was done as a cost saving method, to make their guns cheaper for them to build.
Many people didn't like the changes made in several models, and sales (and reputation) suffered for some time.
Basically, in lever guns and shotguns, many of the minor parts were changed from milled (expensive to make) to stamped (cheaper). In some cases the early stamped parts were not entirely satisfactory.
In the case of the Model 70 bolt action rifle, it underwent a major redesign. Winchester redesigned the bolt, dropping the large Mauser style extractor, in favor of a smaller one. They also free floated the barrel, creating an "ugly gap" around the barrel, where previous rifles had the wood closely fitted to the barrel. There were other changes, but those are the most obvious ones.
Initially the smaller extractor was not trusted to be positive, and manufacturers of dangerous game rifles would use only "pre-64" actions. Because of this, and a general feeling that Winchester had "butchered" (cheapened) a fine rifle, pre-64 rifles came to demand a premium price.
This is just a thumbnail explanation, there are whole books on the subject, which go into all the detail you could want.
I have own a post-64 M70 in .22-250, and have no complaints.
Mauser style was controlled feed and the new style was push feed...
Understated... they hated the changes...
And pissed off their clientele by showing their utter lack of loyalty to the customers and total disregard for their "wants".
Bottom line? The new rifle was very good, but it didn't matter a damn to the dyed-in-the-wool Winchester fans and Remington stepped into the breach and took over the number one position in the rifle world...
That's what happens when you get a bunch of new "meats" fresh out of college who think they can set the rifle manufacturing world on fire...
They did and it flamed their skinny little butts...
Coltdriver
New member
There were also some changes made by Winchester in 1953 that afficianadoes view as detrimental to the quality of the model 70 after that year.
Overall you have a trend in manufacturing to get to more efficient, less labor intensive methods of production. As you got away from hand built, hand fitted weapons that were assembled by craftsmen and went to quicker and more automated production methods there is/was a real and percieved lessening of quality.
I think the bigger mistake that Winchester made with the model 70 in 1964 was to change from a controlled feed to a push feed bolt. That was such a departure that there may have been a tendency to "pile on" after that.
It is true across nearly all gun lines and there are a lot of examples.
In the gun business it is normal to find people with very strongly held opinions
Overall you have a trend in manufacturing to get to more efficient, less labor intensive methods of production. As you got away from hand built, hand fitted weapons that were assembled by craftsmen and went to quicker and more automated production methods there is/was a real and percieved lessening of quality.
I think the bigger mistake that Winchester made with the model 70 in 1964 was to change from a controlled feed to a push feed bolt. That was such a departure that there may have been a tendency to "pile on" after that.
It is true across nearly all gun lines and there are a lot of examples.
In the gun business it is normal to find people with very strongly held opinions
Lever actions
The change to using stamped parts in Winchester lever actions did hurt sales to some degree, but because the parts (lifter or shell carrier for example) were not as visible, many people never noticed the change.
There were some problems with some of the stamped parts in the first few years of production, and because of it, the Model 94's sales slumped a bit as the word got around. When the problems were cleared up, the 94 was again regarded as a fine gun.
Around here, there are people who expect a premium price for pre-64 lever guns, although I never could understand why. Now, with the closing of the Winchester plant, prices are going up on all their models, as people are buying them for speculation. I hope (and expect) that this is a temporary situation, and that after a bit the price will stabilize somewhat.
Shooters love our Winchesters, and I believe someone will resume production in the future.
The change to using stamped parts in Winchester lever actions did hurt sales to some degree, but because the parts (lifter or shell carrier for example) were not as visible, many people never noticed the change.
There were some problems with some of the stamped parts in the first few years of production, and because of it, the Model 94's sales slumped a bit as the word got around. When the problems were cleared up, the 94 was again regarded as a fine gun.
Around here, there are people who expect a premium price for pre-64 lever guns, although I never could understand why. Now, with the closing of the Winchester plant, prices are going up on all their models, as people are buying them for speculation. I hope (and expect) that this is a temporary situation, and that after a bit the price will stabilize somewhat.
Shooters love our Winchesters, and I believe someone will resume production in the future.
Last year I visited the Sauer & sohn factory in Germany who are producers of the sig sauer and sauer guns. To my surprise they told me that they replaced a lot of heavy gauge sheet stamping by milling from solid, If the uncheap germans can do this in a very competative market you wonder, don't you?
The Model 70 is the real one they mention Pre 64 about.
Winchester had earlier discontinued their famous shotguns, the Model 97 in 1957 and Model 12 in 1963, I believe. These guns were all forged and milled parts and much more expensive to make than the Rem 870 which was its competition. Winchester brought out the extremely ugly Model 1200 and 1300 (iirc) to replace the old classic guns. Very disappointing. Also, the wood with its garish pressed in checkering provoked a lot of gag reflexes. YMMV
Winchester had earlier discontinued their famous shotguns, the Model 97 in 1957 and Model 12 in 1963, I believe. These guns were all forged and milled parts and much more expensive to make than the Rem 870 which was its competition. Winchester brought out the extremely ugly Model 1200 and 1300 (iirc) to replace the old classic guns. Very disappointing. Also, the wood with its garish pressed in checkering provoked a lot of gag reflexes. YMMV
44AMP, Pointer and Coltdriver are all correct, but didn't explain that "quality control" was a MAJOR problem with POST-'64 Winchester model 70's.
The difference between the PRE- and POST-'64 model 70's immediately became an "issue", for Winchester had seemingly almost forsaken "quality control". Many post-'64 model 70's hit the gun stores with various problems....from "cosmetic blemishes" to "functional" problems. It took Winchester a couple of years before they regained a modicum of "quality control", but by 1967, most of the "issues" had been corrected....but TOO late! Remington had their 700-series rifles selling like hotcakes! The Remington 600-series rifles were sort of down-played, due to being shorter "carbine"-length rifles. NOW, they are looked upon as being exquisite "Scout"-type rifles! Too bad that the 600's were discontinued!
The difference between the PRE- and POST-'64 model 70's immediately became an "issue", for Winchester had seemingly almost forsaken "quality control". Many post-'64 model 70's hit the gun stores with various problems....from "cosmetic blemishes" to "functional" problems. It took Winchester a couple of years before they regained a modicum of "quality control", but by 1967, most of the "issues" had been corrected....but TOO late! Remington had their 700-series rifles selling like hotcakes! The Remington 600-series rifles were sort of down-played, due to being shorter "carbine"-length rifles. NOW, they are looked upon as being exquisite "Scout"-type rifles! Too bad that the 600's were discontinued!