Hi Everybody I am new to Firing line and have a question I Use IMR 700x Powder almost exclussively in my hand gun loads for the reason that it reguires a small charge I can get 2-3 times the ammo out of a pound of powder over other powders Is ther an advandage to having the cases "fuller other than spotting a double charge easily?
Powder volume
- Thread starter FRANK1669
- Start date
depends
it really is dependent on what you are shooting and what accuracy you expect, etc, etc. There is some evidence that "fuller" charges will give more consistent burn and thus keeping pressures more consistent since the powder won't move in the case as much, etc, and this will tend to group better down range. But this is not a hard and fast rule and maybe not 100% provable, just what I have heard from different sources. I have not tried it myself so I have no personal knowledge.
But double charges is by far the best reason for using a fuller charge of powder.
it really is dependent on what you are shooting and what accuracy you expect, etc, etc. There is some evidence that "fuller" charges will give more consistent burn and thus keeping pressures more consistent since the powder won't move in the case as much, etc, and this will tend to group better down range. But this is not a hard and fast rule and maybe not 100% provable, just what I have heard from different sources. I have not tried it myself so I have no personal knowledge.
But double charges is by far the best reason for using a fuller charge of powder.
View attachment DIPPERS.pdfThis may or may not be of help, but I'll send it anyway.
Your best bet is a good reloading manual.
Your best bet is a good reloading manual.
There is a lot of evidence that fuller cases give better accuracy due to more consistent flame travel. Also that low-density charges can detonate and give pressure spikes and inaccuracy.
There is also a danger of double-charging or triple-charging your cases with low bulk powders. Can you say KABLOOEY?
There is also a danger of double-charging or triple-charging your cases with low bulk powders. Can you say KABLOOEY?
rickomatic
New member
I, like a lot of shooters am getting back into reloading after a decade or two hiatus. Funny what the price of ammo does to a guy, huh? 
Anyway, in my re-study of the issue, I came upon a question that I hope someone here can answer. By the way, I found this old thread via google. and thanks skeeter for the Lee Dipper chart listed above, because that is part of what I was looking for.
OK..here goes my question/dilema.
I am looking at loading data in several different reloading books. A Speer from when I used to reload 20 years ago. A Hodgden from about 10 years ago, and finally 2nd Edition "Modern Reloading" by Richard Lee.
In looking at the charts for .223, and looking at the listed starting loads, using Lee Dippers there is some contradictory data...I think.
H-335 40 gr bullet using Lee Dipper 1.3 shows a load of 26 grains as a start
H-335 54 gr bullet using Lee Dipper 1.3 shows a load of 23 grains as a start
H-335 75 gr bullet using Lee Dipper 1.3 shows a load of 21 grains as a start
H-335 80 gr bullet using Lee Dipper 1.3 shows a load of 20 grains as a start
skeeters Lee Dipper charts shows a Lee Dipper 1.3 as throwing a 20.1 charge of H-335.
Now, it goes without saying that the answer is to measure the initial, or a couple test "dips" and weigh them.
But...why the discrepancy in the listed load weights from the same dipper for the same powder? A 6 grain difference could be disasterous. Especially when the Richard Lee manual says that for the 80 gr. bullet load never to exceed 22.5 grains. And that SAME chart lists the 1.3 dipper (the same one as shown above for all loads) throwing supposedly dangerous loads. Am I missing something here, or forgetting something from my old reloading days 20 years ago?
Thanks in advance, guys.
Anyway, in my re-study of the issue, I came upon a question that I hope someone here can answer. By the way, I found this old thread via google. and thanks skeeter for the Lee Dipper chart listed above, because that is part of what I was looking for.
OK..here goes my question/dilema.
I am looking at loading data in several different reloading books. A Speer from when I used to reload 20 years ago. A Hodgden from about 10 years ago, and finally 2nd Edition "Modern Reloading" by Richard Lee.
In looking at the charts for .223, and looking at the listed starting loads, using Lee Dippers there is some contradictory data...I think.
H-335 40 gr bullet using Lee Dipper 1.3 shows a load of 26 grains as a start
H-335 54 gr bullet using Lee Dipper 1.3 shows a load of 23 grains as a start
H-335 75 gr bullet using Lee Dipper 1.3 shows a load of 21 grains as a start
H-335 80 gr bullet using Lee Dipper 1.3 shows a load of 20 grains as a start
skeeters Lee Dipper charts shows a Lee Dipper 1.3 as throwing a 20.1 charge of H-335.
Now, it goes without saying that the answer is to measure the initial, or a couple test "dips" and weigh them.
But...why the discrepancy in the listed load weights from the same dipper for the same powder? A 6 grain difference could be disasterous. Especially when the Richard Lee manual says that for the 80 gr. bullet load never to exceed 22.5 grains. And that SAME chart lists the 1.3 dipper (the same one as shown above for all loads) throwing supposedly dangerous loads. Am I missing something here, or forgetting something from my old reloading days 20 years ago?
Thanks in advance, guys.
Okay, I can't find the sheet that came with my Lee .223 Rem dies. So I grabbed another caliber... 9mm. I think I might have figured out what it is that you are reading.
The first thing listed under a 115 grain Jacketed Bullet is load data using Power Pistol powder. Looks like this:
Start Grains / VolumeCC / Auto Disk / LeeDipper / NEVER EXCEED / VelocityFPS / MinOAL
--- 6.2 -------- .55 ------- .53 -------- .5 ---------- 6.7 -------- 1280 ------ 1.120
The wait I see it, they are telling you that if you have a scale, you can weigh out a charge of 6.2 as a safe starting charge. OR, you can use the Auto Disk powder measure cavity .53, or you can use Lee Dipper # 0.5. It's also telling you that a 6.2 grain charge of this powder is a CC volume of 0.55. Therefore, if you use the 0.5 Lee Dipper, you'll be a hair under 6.2 grains in weight, and if you use the auto disk 0.53 cavity, you'll be just a tiny, tiny little smidge under the 6.2 grain weight. Nowhere in any of the data on 9mm do they EVER tell you to use a dipper that throws a charge HEAVIER than the charge they list on that line of load data.
They are saying that 6.2 grains of Power Pistol should have a volume of 0.55cc. They are also saying that there is an Auto Disk cavity that has a volume capacity of .53 (very close!) and there is also a dipper with a volume capacity of 0.5cc.
There's a lot of different recipes with their supplied data, but for many of them, there is not a dipper listed because there's no a dipper that's a good compromise for that powder and charge weight.
Skeeter's Dipper Chart tells you that if you use XXX dipper with XXX powder, this is the charge it will toss, generally. That's going to supersede whatever else you've read. If it says Lee Dipper 1.3 is going to throw a 20.1 charge of H-335, then that's what it is going to throw.
Hope this helps. I hope I've read it correctly and didn't muddy it up further!
The first thing listed under a 115 grain Jacketed Bullet is load data using Power Pistol powder. Looks like this:
Start Grains / VolumeCC / Auto Disk / LeeDipper / NEVER EXCEED / VelocityFPS / MinOAL
--- 6.2 -------- .55 ------- .53 -------- .5 ---------- 6.7 -------- 1280 ------ 1.120
The wait I see it, they are telling you that if you have a scale, you can weigh out a charge of 6.2 as a safe starting charge. OR, you can use the Auto Disk powder measure cavity .53, or you can use Lee Dipper # 0.5. It's also telling you that a 6.2 grain charge of this powder is a CC volume of 0.55. Therefore, if you use the 0.5 Lee Dipper, you'll be a hair under 6.2 grains in weight, and if you use the auto disk 0.53 cavity, you'll be just a tiny, tiny little smidge under the 6.2 grain weight. Nowhere in any of the data on 9mm do they EVER tell you to use a dipper that throws a charge HEAVIER than the charge they list on that line of load data.
They are saying that 6.2 grains of Power Pistol should have a volume of 0.55cc. They are also saying that there is an Auto Disk cavity that has a volume capacity of .53 (very close!) and there is also a dipper with a volume capacity of 0.5cc.
There's a lot of different recipes with their supplied data, but for many of them, there is not a dipper listed because there's no a dipper that's a good compromise for that powder and charge weight.
Skeeter's Dipper Chart tells you that if you use XXX dipper with XXX powder, this is the charge it will toss, generally. That's going to supersede whatever else you've read. If it says Lee Dipper 1.3 is going to throw a 20.1 charge of H-335, then that's what it is going to throw.
Hope this helps. I hope I've read it correctly and didn't muddy it up further!
rickomatic
New member
Ok..I think I cut the forest down so I can see the trees now. My question about Lee Dipper grain weight discrepancies in the Richard Lee manual was confused by the way I was reading the charts. I was thinking that the recommended starting load was equal to what the given Lee Dipper would throw for that powder. They are in fact two different factors. The recommended Lee Dipper for a given powder I guess is kind of an average load for any given recipe in the chart.
I've never worried about using small charges of 700X except with large cases such as the .45 Colt and lighter bullets such as a 200 grain SWC. If you're getting good groups and see no high standard deviation numbers (which could indicate some inconsistent pressures) when chronographing the loads, you should be fine.
Jim Watson
New member
I have loaded a lot of .45 ACP with 700X and it does just fine.
I have loaded some .44-40 with 700X and it shows less position sensitivity than Titegroup which is advertised for the purpose.
I do not use 700X in .38 special or 9mm P because the charges are so light that the large flakes do not meter well in either CH or Dillon. I would get the occasional one grain charge, which would not stick a bullet but would sure not hit the target.
I have loaded some .44-40 with 700X and it shows less position sensitivity than Titegroup which is advertised for the purpose.
I do not use 700X in .38 special or 9mm P because the charges are so light that the large flakes do not meter well in either CH or Dillon. I would get the occasional one grain charge, which would not stick a bullet but would sure not hit the target.
Lee Load Data
Start Grains in the Lee Manual is explained on page 712 as an ideal starting load.
See page 713 for the explanation that the suggested dipper is the largest available that does not exceed the start load. Sort of an apples and oranges thing.
Dipper capacity charts are on page 706.
Start Grains in the Lee Manual is explained on page 712 as an ideal starting load.
See page 713 for the explanation that the suggested dipper is the largest available that does not exceed the start load. Sort of an apples and oranges thing.
Dipper capacity charts are on page 706.
castnblast
New member
Here's a thought - has anyone ever put a .357 mag load in a .38 spc case to be fired out of a .357 mag for the purpose of filling the case???? I've considered it, but never done it. There are some powders this could theoretically be done with. I was curious if this would really be dangerous or not, given the pressures created should be the same???
rwilson452
New member
How do you spell KAboooM. Yes it it dangerous not enough case volume that results in far too much pressure.
castnblast: The formula for figuring pressure is
pV=nRT
where
p is the absolute pressure [Pa],
V is the volume [m3] of the vessel containing moles of gas, here it is the volune you allow in the shell case
n is the amount of substance of gas [mol], here it is in solid form as powder
R is the gas constant [8.314 472 m3·Pa·K−1·mol−1],
T is the temperature in kelvin [K].
Think of the amount of gas n as being in solid form as powder until the "big bang".
Presume you are shooting your pet 357 load. Now decrease the volume V (by seating the bullet deeper in a 38 case) and keep the gas n the same, in order for the equation to ballance, the pressure p must go up.
So, yes, if you are at a high but not max 357 load, and put it in a 38 case, you may be exceeding dangerous pressure levels.
pV=nRT
where
p is the absolute pressure [Pa],
V is the volume [m3] of the vessel containing moles of gas, here it is the volune you allow in the shell case
n is the amount of substance of gas [mol], here it is in solid form as powder
R is the gas constant [8.314 472 m3·Pa·K−1·mol−1],
T is the temperature in kelvin [K].
Think of the amount of gas n as being in solid form as powder until the "big bang".
Presume you are shooting your pet 357 load. Now decrease the volume V (by seating the bullet deeper in a 38 case) and keep the gas n the same, in order for the equation to ballance, the pressure p must go up.
So, yes, if you are at a high but not max 357 load, and put it in a 38 case, you may be exceeding dangerous pressure levels.
TexasSeaRay
New member
I'd rather play Spin The Bottle with a rattlesnake.
As far as choosing a powder in which you can get a two-for-one (or better) economy, for me, that is at the very bottom of my list of reasons for choosing the powders I do.
Especially with handgun loads, the amount of powder you use is so negligible as to not even really factor in so far as price/economics is concerned.
I choose powders based upon performance and optimum potential for consistent, tight groups. I recently experimented with four different and previously unused powders for my 44 Special loads. All four shot distinctly different, and not all of the powders performed equally.
The reason I reload is twofold and joined at the hip: I reload to produce incredibly accurate ammunition for a fraction of the cost of lesser factory-produced ammunition.
Saving a couple of bucks over the course of a pound of powder really serves no purpose for the reasons I reload.
Jeff
castnblast
New member
I suspected as much...i'm no phys. science expert, but common sense told me never to do it...glad i asked...One thing i was taught by my mentor many years ago - don't experiment w/ data. there are people much smarter, w/ a lot more equipment than I have to figure these things out. So I'll leave that to the experts...I am not...And I'm not affraid to admit it.
handgun only
I admit to being less than enamored with LEE handgun data.
I instead suggest Accurate, Speer, Sierra, Hornady, Winchester, Alliant, Vihtavuori, Hodgdon, and Lyman data.
Amongst others.
But not LEE (nor "LoadMap", either).
Dippers, while fine, are not meant to be used without a scale.
I have, but now I don't.
(Phrase currently escapes my mind; the SAAMI test when the barrel is pointed up or down....."SAAMI bump"? Oh it's hell getting old.)
I admit to being less than enamored with LEE handgun data.
I instead suggest Accurate, Speer, Sierra, Hornady, Winchester, Alliant, Vihtavuori, Hodgdon, and Lyman data.
Amongst others.
But not LEE (nor "LoadMap", either).
Dippers, while fine, are not meant to be used without a scale.
I have, but now I don't.
(Phrase currently escapes my mind; the SAAMI test when the barrel is pointed up or down....."SAAMI bump"? Oh it's hell getting old.)
I can't tell you if it's truthful or accurate, but Lee states that their data included with dies is gathered from powder manufacturers.
Also, for anyone still discussing the original question, do note that it's more than a year and a half old. Still worth discussing, but I don't know if the original poster is still seeking answers to this question.
Also, for anyone still discussing the original question, do note that it's more than a year and a half old. Still worth discussing, but I don't know if the original poster is still seeking answers to this question.