Powder-dirt question

[cdoc42]

I usually use Clays 4.0gr (max) with an Everglades 230gr FMJ bullet in my Kimber TLE II .45 ACP pistol. After reading about what appears to be traditional accuracy with Bullseye and W231/HP-38, since I have both, I thought I'd evaluate accuracy differences with all 3 powders.

I loaded 15 of each powder at max charges: Clays 4.0gr; Bullseye 5.3gr; and HP-38 at 5.8gr. I rechecked each charge and corrected anything over max while being satisfied with 0.1gr under max.

The results were interesting; at 12 yards, benched, iron sights, all 3 loads produced similar and acceptable groups. Using a 6-o'clock hold, Bullseye impacted in the center; Clays was slightly to the left and lower; HP-38 was higher and to the left. I considered this "acceptable" because previously I was able to hit 12 out of 12 bowling pins off-hand at 7- and 10-yards with Clays.

My major issue was cleaning the pistol afterward. One-inch of the muzzle on both sides was completely covered with black soot, but was quickly removed with KG-1 carbon cleaner. The top of the frame and the barrel had carbon deposits that were incredibly difficult to remove. I spent at least 45 minutes scrubbing the barrel, sequentially using KG-1, Gunzilla, G-96 Gun Treatment with cotton swabs and a .45 caliber Nylon brush, followed by a Remington Shotgun Cleaner wash. Each time the swabs were black and I could still see carbon embedded in the barrel grooves. Finally, 2 runs of 15 swabs using the Nylon brush encircled with copper strands from a proprietary pad-type cleaner saturated with Slip-2000 removed the rest of the carbon deposits.

I have not had this experience with Clays, so I assume either or both of the Bullseye and HP-38 played a role. Has anyone had a similar experience?

 

[lll Otto lll]

Wow, you used 5 different concoctions to clean the soot after only 45 rounds?
I suspect Bullseye is your culprit. Primers play a part in dirtiness as well.
I like Bore Tech Eliminator because it removes copper fouling too.

 

[44 AMP]

I don't know Clays or HP-38, but have run Bullseye for decades (mostly CCI primers) and never noticed it to be a particularly dirty powder.

Am curious why you tried so many different cleaning agents, and not Hoppes No 9.

Never met powder fouling Hoppes didn't take care of. smells bad, toxic, I think, but you're not drinking it...

 

[cdoc42]

44AMP, I've always been impressed with the odor of Hoppes #9, and my wife appreciates it when she is looking for me and identifies the odor with my location in my reloading room. But that was 30 years ago and she has learned where I might be if my presence is not that obvious. It has nothing comparable to Scotch, so you are correct when you suspect that I have not been drinking it.

But I am NOT talking about copper fouling here, but rather, carbon. NO patch that I recovered had any "blue" color. So let us eliminate from the discussion any attempt to reduce copper fouling. To my eye, the "crud" in the grooves of my .45 ACP was black and there was zero hint of blue on any of the patches along my journey.

Otto points to Bullseye as a possibility, countered by 44 AMP's experience.
Just to clarify, the pistol had been completely cleaned prior to this exercise. What about the simulataneous combination of Clays, BE, and HP-38? Any chemists out there?

 

[DaleA]

My experience mirrors 44 AMP.

In my younger days I shot a lot of .45 ACP with 200 grain lead semi-wadcutters and 185 grain lead semi-wadcutters and either Bullseye, 700X or Red Dot powder. (I got the 700x and Red Dot free from my father, a trap shooter who joked that he spilled more powder in a week than I used in a year.)

I thought the Red Dot and 700x were a little bit 'dirtier' than Bullseye but I never had anything like the problem you describe with cleaning your gun after shooting.

And yeah, I used Hoppes #9 (still do mostly) but the fouling wasn't bad and I'm pretty sure any of the products you mentioned would have cleaned up my gun too.

Anybody have any theories about what might be going on here?

 

[DaleA]

Just had a thought. (I know, an original thought and a cold drink of water could probably kill me.)

Years ago I tried Titegroup in a .357 revolver and the other shooters in my league at the indoor range inquired if I had switched over to black powder.

(Note: lots of other people use Titegroup without the problem I experienced so it was my reloading and not the powder.)

I think the problem was I was using light loads and not crimping enough.

I doubt this is your problem. I'm just throwing it out there to get us thinking 'outside the box'.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Clays and 700X are my go to powders in 9mm and no buildup of carbon like you describe. The only place I use BE is in my .38sp wadcutters and my guns are always dirty from using it. Not sure if this really has any relation to your experience but it’s been my experience using these three powders in my situation.

 

[Lurch37]

but have run Bullseye for decades (mostly CCI primers) and never noticed it to be a particularly dirty powder.

Same here, although of late I have been using Power Pistol for my 45acp loads.

 

[cdoc42]

The absence of HP-38 here sounds like it may be the culprit. But from strictly a "scientific" approach, it seems the next step is using HP-38 alone, then cleaning; then HP-38 and BE, and cleaning. No sense in using BE or Clays alone because I've not had this problem with Clays and no one here has had it with BE. Bottom line maybe all 3 are the problem.

 

[Nick_C_S]

cdoc42, you'll likely not glean much from my post. But I'll just share my experience.

I've been loading/shooting 1911's with Bullseye and W231 since 1984 ('85 for W231, to be exact). And I have shot a lot of Everglades 230 JHP's in my three full sized 1911's. The FMJ round nose is a bit of a different animal, but I have used my fair share of them as well. In 45 ACP especially, the RN bullet will use more propellant compared to the JHP as it usually isn't seated as deep. Your recipes are spot-on, compared to mine using 230 FMJ RN's.

Through the years, I have used a lot of Bullseye and W231 (sometimes it's actually HP-38) through these, and many other guns (revolvers mostly) with countless different projectiles. I have no experience with Clays.

What I can say is that Bullseye is definitely "residuey," as I call it. I believe it has graphite in its mixture. It matters not whether it's loaded hot or not so hot (5.3gn in your recipe is plenty stout). But . . . this residue comes right off with Hoppes #9. I have never experienced any kind of build up I'd call "fouling." And a typical range trip leaves some 150 to 250 projectiles downrange. (I always clean my guns between range trips - always.)

W231 does the same thing, in my experience, just not as much.

But neither has ever done to me what you have described in your post. I find it quite curious.

The next step you mention is a sound approach to isolate the condition that causes this phenomenon.

 

[rc]

I'm more concerned about accuracy, reliability and cost than time spent cleaning.

 

[Mike38]

Bullseye is a dirty burning powder, no question about it. It's even worse with light target loads, at or below recommended minimum charge. What I do is simple. Throw away all those fancy named cleaning chemicals you listed, and throw away those nylon bore brushes. Good old Hoppe's #9 and bronze bore brushes make quick work of cleaning.

 

[cdoc42]

I started with Hoppes#9 YEARS ago and migrated to everything else on the market to see if something else might be better, which has really been an exercise in futility.

It looks like this old dog can be taught new tricks by going back to Hoppes #9 "old fashioned' bronze brushes. I'll give it try. My wife won't disagree because she has a better nose than me and can find me wherever Hoppes might be.

 

[Carriertxv]

I guess you’re not a black powder shooter if bullseye is considered dirty. I shoot a lot of Bullseye, 231, Unique and Black Powder. I just use a rag damp with Ballistol and everything just wipes right off.

 

[Unclenick]

I spent at least 45 minutes scrubbing the barrel, sequentially using KG-1, Gunzilla, G-96 Gun Treatment with cotton swabs and a .45 caliber Nylon brush, followed by a Remington Shotgun Cleaner wash.

I think the time frame identifies part of the issue. In a 2006 Precision Shooting article, cleaners were tested for a bore scope comparison. One of the author's comments was that most shooters push patches in rapid succession and don't give the solvents time to work. He suggested most will keep working for 20 minutes, and I've had Gunzilla keep working for weeks in one very extreme instance.

Since you have Gunzilla, I recommend you wet the bore with it, let it sit overnight, and see what patches out the next day. I once had a ring of carbon at the end of a chamber in an AR that nothing, not even JB Bore compound, brushes, or any standard cleaning agent, would touch. I put Gunzilla in overnight, and the next day, a single patch completely removed it.

If that doesn't do it, get the Slip2000 Carbon Killer mentioned in the article. It is faster.

 

[Jim Watson]

My FLG preferred Bullseye, said it left residue but it was fine and sooty, not gritty like Ball powder fouling. Until he went to N310.
I load midrange .45 ACP with Bullseye and other non-magnums with HP38. I have considered going all Bullseye when I have to restock.

 

[ballardw]

I think the time frame identifies part of the issue. In a 2006 Precision Shooting article, cleaners were tested for a bore scope comparison. One of the author's comments was that most shooters push patches in rapid succession and don't give the solvents time to work. He suggested most will keep working for 20 minutes, and I've had Gunzilla keep working for weeks in one very extreme instance.

Might blame part of that haste on Basic Training, or equivalent in other services, where we weren't allowed much time to clean the rifles...

 

[Unclenick]

Could be. In a sniper class I took at Gunsite, the ex-Marine head instructor gave us ten minutes to completely clean a bore after every ten rounds fired. I never got complete cleaning that way. At night there were always a couple more hours of bore cleaning going on to catch up with the guys whose bores weren't as prone to fouling as mine.

Regarding Bullseye, it does have graphite in it. I've run a 1911 almost to 3500 rounds of Bullseye loads without cleaning. At that point, though, the slide started failing to go quite 100% forward, and it was thoroughly caked with fouling and streaks of graphite showed where little bits of gas had exited between the grip panels and frame, as well as it being everywhere you would expect to find it. It took an evening to get it pristine again. Target-wise, though, the lubricating quality of the graphite and the tightening of fit done by the gradual buildup had the gun shooting remarkably tight groups.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Make sure your cleaner us bore and finish safe, let it sit a spell. One of the best things i ever did. Let the chemicals do the work.

 

[cdoc42]

Unclenick, recall that I mentioned I finally used Slip2000, but I was drawn to avoid delay by the warning that it should not be allowed to dry out in the gun, and the directions call for leaving it in the barrel for 2-5 minutes.

I also recalled a previous post of yours where you mentioned leaving Gunzilla in for extended periods, but I only let it in for about an hour. The next time the need arrives I'll pull an overnighter, but I just came home yesterday with Hoppes#9 and bronze brushes....