Poll : where does "rifle stopping power" begin?

[Chris Pinkleton]

Enough with the handgun caliber wars. . .

As some wise soul here posted "they're all vying for the role of "biggest pigmy" ."

So I think we all agree that if you can get your hands on one, a rifle is a far superior "stopper" than a handgun. But many of today's high-intensity handgun loads seem to be flirting with rifle power levels, even in a standard length (lets say 8" or less, just for the sake of arguement ) barrel.

So at what point do handgun loads reach the rifle standard? I know these options barely scratch the surface, but I had to start the fight somewhere.

Possible side topics: is energy any kind of "stopping power" gauge, the importance of caliber, etc.

No, I wouldn't try to use a .454 as a defensive arm, either, but I thought this might be an interesting vein to mine.

 

[Chris Pinkleton]

P.S. I guess we should assume all these are hollopoints, and are being launched from a pistol-sized platform.

I voted for the .454, without any really good reason for doing so. It's energy levels certainly compare well with many rifle cartriges.

 

[CastleBravo]

In terms of foot-pounds muzzle energy, hot-loaded .44 Magnum (at ~1200 ft-lbs) is entering the realm of weaker rifle cartridges like hot-loaded .223. To get the same muzzle energy as the lowly .30-30 from a handgun you have to step up to .454 Casull. Of course, in terms of what they are good for we are still talking apples and oranges.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Power to stop a rifle.....shoot the rifleman in the eye with a .25ACP.

Sam

 

[croyance]

Reminds me that the idea of necking down a .454 Casull to .308 & 180 grains seems like a good idea. Then again I could get a T/C.

 

[New_comer]

At more than 95% OSS manstopping power, the full house 357 magnum is encroaching into the realm of the rifle cartridges.

 

[dsk]

This post is really vague, as there is the question of exactly what rifles you are referring to. A .223 rifle is no .300 H&H Magnum, but then again for police/military use you certainly don't need an elk rifle! And of course, if we're talking about a .30 Carbine pretty much any of the handgun calibers above are already past it.

 

[Blue Duck357]

I think it's kind of funny that 9mm people will work and work to get true 1300 fps loads, .357 Sig guys will puff out there chest that ther loads actually reach 1350 fps with a 125 grain bullet, 357 magnum folks speak of the "hydrostatic shock" that comes with a 1400 FPS load.

Yet everyone makes fun of the old lumbering 45-70 loads that "only" reach 1800 fps with a 300 grain bullet

No offense but IMHO, handguns just can't compete.

 

[coonan357]

it's not the gun ,it's how the shot was placed that decides stopping power

 

[Chris Pinkleton]

But a hit with a shotgun beats a hit with a .22lr, if it's not in the CNS. And I think a .223 beats a .357 or .45 in the same way.

Folks, I'm just trying to find out at what level most folks feel they have moved out of the level of "stopping power" (the quotes here aren't optional, I have no faith in OSS figures of any kind, I'm just curious about others' highly subjective opinions, maybe backed up with a little data) of conventional handguns. The 2 axioms that "stopping power" TFL threads always seem to boil down to are:

1)Placement is the important thing; load is not very important.

2)If you can, have a rifle or shotgun when SHTF. Pistols are a weapon of emergency, a stop-gap when the previous 2 aren't at hand.

I agree with 1), but I'll take my .357Sig over a .380 anyday -- and if you use anything but FMJ for self-defence, you have to admit you're willing to take any edge you can get. I think we all buy into this premise, but it doesn't change the fact that some loads have a tendency to cause more severe trauma than others.

2) makes sense to me too, because of the ease of use over pistols as well as power. No handgun equals the shotgun for effectiveness, but many magnum pistol loads seem in the ballpark of lighter rifle loads. Yes, I could have specified ".223" or ".308", but I think the question of what a "real" rifle is has been done to death on the rifle forum. I figured each TFLer would pick a pistol cartridge that matches his or her definition of what a rifle for "serious social circumstances" is. For me, it's .223, but again, I have no real good reason for thinking so -- so I didn't mention it.


And Sam, yes, it should be "rifle-level incapcitation index" or some such thang, but what can you expect from a boy who lives right outside the hood?

 

[355sigfan]

Lets see a 158 grain 357 mag is too heavy a 125 at 1450 works better in the street as it does not go too deep and waste its power.
PAT

 

[shy_man]

I live in a city, so I am not much interested in rifle. Besides, my only purpose for having a gun is for CCW as a self defense tool.

Comparing many rifle caliber which one is more powerful, it will start to a no end discussion as there are many good rifles use by the military produced by several countries for war purposes.

Thanks

 

[355sigfan]

Shyman you would be surprised to know that the 223 is less of a penetration risk in the home and the city than most pistol rounds.

Here is some info.
The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.

Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.

Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.

The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:

A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)

All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.

The following results were obtained:

1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.

The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!

Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.

.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2






.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].

Testing Medium
Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.

A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.

Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.

Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.

Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.

Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W† wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
† CCI Gold Dot.

Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.

The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.

When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".

Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.

Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

 

[Tamara]

Lets see a 158 grain 357 mag is too heavy...

Is that in the same way a .45-70 is "too heavy", or a different way? I mean, you really think a 125gr bullet @ 1400 works better than a 158gr bullet @ 1400?

 

[Chris Pinkleton]

It's 'cause Marshall & Sanow say so . . .

 

[355sigfan]

Is that in the same way a .45-70 is "too heavy", or a different way? I mean, you really think a 125gr bullet @ 1400 works better than a 158gr bullet @ 1400?
END
Real world street studies say they do. The 158 grain load uses its energy behind the target. Unless you could get a 158 grain 357 mag not to exit and use all its energy in 12 inches. Marshall and Sanow work is the best going by default as no one else has anything to offer from the real world.
PAT

 

[Pigshooter]

The 454 compares very favorably with a 45-70 shooting the same weight bullet, until you get into the type III actions.

I hunt exclusively with handguns. Rifles are too cumbersome in the brush, especially with a spotlight.

 

[Tamara]

Real world street studies say they do.

Studies is plural.

Study is singular.

There's a difference; especially when the lone study referred to is under such heavy scholarly fire and refuses to respond in a scholarly fashion.

I own all their books Pat, I've read all their articles; I'm just not as convinced as you are that they are sole posessors of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

[stick]

We all have different versions of low end rifle power so here's one working definition: .223 55gr bullet at 3100. This generates ~1200ft/lbs at the muzzle. Any handgun that hits this ME level is now in the rifle energy zone, all be it at the LOW end.

Now stopping power is a whole different game that is difficult at best to quantitate. This is dependent on the interaction of the projectile with the target. The question here is does the bullet have enough energy and penetration to disrupt a system to stop the target. Many-a-variables here...energy down range, bullet intergrity, shot placement and flight path through target to name a few.

 

[agtman]

.357 158gn @ 1400fps, yadda, yadda, yadda [insert here: long bored yawn].


I'll still take a 10mm 200gn XTP/JHP @ 1250 fps/694ft-lbs. This poll's out of whack already for having omitting the 10mm Auto.