Police shoot out close to home

[doh_312]

In colorado, just 8 blocks from my house, there is a bank that was robbed by two armed guys. This bank is right next to the grocery store I frequent. The BG fled East on 120th, possibly towards the highway I-25. They drove about 8 blocks before they were stopped by police. A 15 second gunfight ensued. Two police injured, but recovering in the hospital, and 2 BG dead.

It was creepy to see the images on the news. The BG car looks like swiss cheese from all the bullet holes. I recognized the stores and such in the background. Made the situation a little bit more real for me. I guess I've been numbed to shooting scenes through movies, news and work. Seeing this one, just a short ways from home, hit me in a different place.

Reconsidered my daily carry equipment, but I didn't make any changes. Aside from a bullet proof vest and car but I certainly wont be able to convince the wife to let me get those. Nor would I care to wear a vest every day. I am considering carrying another magazine. This would bring the total to 2 extra mags.

Now obviously with the amount of police on the scene I do not plan on getting involved. But this got me thinking, what if I see multiple BG's engaged in gun fire with one or maybe two officers. Of course there are many, many variables that would force action one way or another. But say you see one officer, out gunned, out manned, fighting for his life. Do you intervene? Your not uniformed, how does the officer know your on his side? Maybe he sees you draw and shoots at you. On the other hand, maybe you have a flanking position on BG's and you can take out two of them or more before they realize they're against multiple shooters.

I'd like to hear your thoughs on what actions you would take. Please include what variables pushed your decision.

 

[Dragon55]

There are mucho reasons to not get involved.

1. Any shooting you do is illegal
2. Backup cops on the way may shoot you
3. After BG's kill cops they come after you
4. You are not being paid to risk your life

 

[Chris_B]

I'm not a Policeman. My weapon is for my protection, not so that I can engage in 'justifiable' combat

 

[doh_312]

Yes true true, but you should be able to hear sirens of assisting police get to the scene. Or at least see them arrive.

This guy, a regular guy who wears a badge in order to protect and serve, is in a life/death struggle. He is at the disadvantage in the situation. Just like when you dial 911 and the cops are minutes away, his back-up is minutes away while the end of his life may be seconds away.

Would you not try to help a good man fighting for his life? If the shooting had truely just errupted, then the cop may not have had time to relay his need for help. Just as you may be in a shooting and not able to call for help.

 

[Nnobby45]

Now obviously with the amount of police on the scene I do not plan on getting involved. But this got me thinking, what if I see multiple BG's engaged in gun fire with one or maybe two officers.

One can't generalize about the specific incident that would apply to you, but it might be that the officers you were trying to help would be confused, and they and responding officers would, perhaps, not be able to distinguish you from the bad guys.


Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[pax]

There are mucho reasons to not get involved.

1. Any shooting you do is illegal

There are indeed a lot of "practical" reasons not to get involved. But legality is not one of them.

Based on common law and court precedent, as a general rule, it is acceptable to use force in defense of others in circumstances where the person whom you act to save would legally be able to defend himself or herself using that same level of force if he or she were physically able to do so. Put another way (and using a very old legal concept), a bystander could legally "stand in the shoes" of the person at risk, using the same level of force that that person would be justified in using. If that person would be legally justified in using deadly force to protect himself or herself, then you also would be legally justified in using deadly force on that person's behalf. This is true whether or not the other person is a cop or simply another ordinary citizen -- but in the case of a uniformed cop, you're a lot less likely to "save" the wrong person than when the other person is an ordinary citizen not in uniform.

Quick review: a firearm is used as a last-ditch option to save a human life when all other possible choices have either failed or are obviously and manifestly impossible. (See www.CorneredCat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx for details on that.) For armed citizens, the carry firearm's purpose is to save a human life, not to help apprehend criminals or to enforce the law.

If a human life is definitely in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger, and you know for sure who's the good guy & who's the bad guy, you are on legally-firm ground when you intervene to save that life. You might still be stymied by other practical concerns ("Can I do this without endangering myself?"), but you'd be fine, legally.

pax

 

[doh_312]

That is a very good point. One big danger with getting involved would be how your percieved to the boy in blue. But officers in plain clothes meet up with uniformed officers in shootings. There must be some way officers determine them to be good.

If your weapon is obviously pointed at the same guys the officer is gunning at dont you think you'd get the benefit of the doubt as a good guy?

 

[Chris_B]

No, I don't. Why would I get the benefit of the doubt? I have an honest face?

Anyone here can come up with a "yeah but what if this happens" rebuttal, for either side of the argument

You have to consider the facts that will not change, not the variables you wish to argue. Here's some facts:

1) The cops and you are in a stress situation and they are trained, and you...might be trained
2) the cops have a fair chance of knowing what's happening. They have radios and communicate
3) you only know what you see
4) the cops will NOT recognize you
5) you don't know if more cops are coming, or if more bad guys are coming, and where they will show up
6) the cops know damn sure they didn't call you
7) there is no "good guy" uniform other than a Policeman's uniform

In my opinion, stacking this deck against my odds for survival this badly is dumb. Also don't forget that the potential for swooping in like a hero, unannounced and unknown to anyone, could get somebody- maybe the 'wrong' somebody- killed. The possible outcomes are not restricted to "help, or do nothing". Some of the outcomes are quite tragic. Your distraction might get a cop killed

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Big gunfight that close to home? Go home and protect the castle.

 

[OldMarksman]

But officers in plain clothes meet up with uniformed officers in shootings. There must be some way officers determine them to be good.

In one recent case in NY, they made the determination by identifying the man they had killed.

 

[Glenn Dee]

Where I'm from the uniformed police have a series of verbal challenges to identify plain clothed on duty officers. There is also a way of telling plain clothed officers by simply looking at them. This came about as a result of off duty officers being shot while coming to the aid of on duty police officers. Or making off duty arrests using their gun.

Legally armed citizens should give serious pause to getting involved in a police shooting. If the citizen is unable to communicate with the officer he may very well assume the good samaritan to be another adversary.

This is a tactical situation I wouldnt wish on anyone. In an urban, or suburban setting it would probably be a most dangerous situation. The officers back up will propably be minutes, if not seconds away. In a rural area it may be more practical to assist a police officer. In rural locations the officers backup may be ten's of minutes away or worse. Also it's more likely the officer knows the civilian trying to help him personally.

I guess it comes down to a judgment call. Could I stand by and allow a police officer to be shot down while I have the means to prevent it?... My personal answer is no!!!.

 

[MTT TL]

In some states, notably Texas, the police can legally order you to assist in subduing a suspect to make an arrest. Short of that I think I would only intervene if the police clearly needed help and were unable to request it.

 

[45Gunner]

One point I try to pound home when I teach a CCW class: Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a policeman. Carrying a concealed weapon is for the defense of your life and those of your loved ones. The only other time you are sanctioned to use your weapon is to prevent the death of another individual or terminate a sexual assault. End of discussion. In the situation described by the OP, one may well get themselves shot trying to be a good samaritan. If the situation were, for example, an officer on the ground and no weapon in his hand, and he was about to be executed by a BG, then you would justified in drawing your gun as you are saving the life of another.

Please keep in mind that police are trained for these situations. If you, the bystander, attempts to get involved without an invitation, you just may get shot as you are an unknown commodity with a gun in a gun battle with everyone's adrenaline pumping. There is no time for an officer to ask you what are intentions are.

My personal preference for concealed carry:

1. One in the chamber.

2. Full magazine in the well.

3. Two full magazines in a dual pouch.

4. A BUG of the same caliber as the primary gun.

I may be a little paranoid, but my biggest dread is that of running out of ammo. Not really a big concern in the places I frequent but just something I carried with me from my Vietnam days when my squad was involved in forever firefights and that fear was very real.

My home defense arsenal has several thousand rounds of 5.56 for my AR-15,
about 500 shotgun shells, and a couple thousand rounds of .45 ACP which is my caliber of choice. Also included are five thousand rounds of .22LR and a mixture of a couple of thousand rounds of assorted other calibers for my other guns. I believe I have enough to "secure the fort" if the need ever arose.

 

[sixxgunnernick]

ccw badge

Wear one..it does not make you a cop but gives you identity.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

In some states, notably Texas, the police can legally order you to assist in subduing a suspect to make an arrest.

Okay, what is the law? I don't recall that one coming up previously. Did a quick search and can't find such a law on the books. There are laws about rendering aid, but did not anything about being forced into law enforcement roles.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Okay, what is the law?

In NY:

3. A person who has been directed by a police officer or a peace
officer to assist such police officer or peace officer to effect an
arrest or to prevent an escape from custody may use physical force,
other than deadly physical force, when and to the extent that he or she
reasonably believes such to be necessary to carry out such police
officer's or peace officer's direction, unless he or she knows that the
arrest or prospective arrest is not or was not authorized and may use
deadly physical force under such circumstances when:
(a) He or she reasonably believes such to be necessary for
self-defense or to defend a third person from what he or she reasonably
believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force; or
(b) He or she is directed or authorized by such police officer or
peace officer to use deadly physical force unless he or she knows that
the police officer or peace officer is not authorized to use deadly
physical force under the circumstances.


So, there is at least an expectation that a citizen can be "directed by a police officer... to assist such police officer". Whether or not noncompliance carries any penalty, I don't know.

 

[MTT TL]

A quick search won't help you these days

Okay, what is the law?

The internet quick searches are being overtaken by weird commercial interests. There is so much garbage on the net we will soon be buried under it. I m awaiting the day for the rise of the specialty search engines (already popular in academia).

But a longer search:

Art. 2.14. MAY SUMMON AID. Whenever a peace officer meets with resistance in discharging any duty imposed upon him by law, he shall summon a sufficient number of citizens of his county to overcome the resistance; and all persons summoned are bound to obey.

Acts 1965, 59th Leg., vol. 2, p. 317, ch. 722.


Art. 2.15. PERSON REFUSING TO AID. The peace officer who has summoned any person to assist him in performing any duty shall report such person, if he refuse to obey, to the proper district or county attorney, in order that he may be prosecuted for the offense.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CR/htm/CR.2.htm#2.13

Arresting people is one if his duties, congrats, you have been deputized...

 

[Doc Intrepid]

'I'll show you mine if you show me yours!'

"But officers in plain clothes meet up with uniformed officers in shootings. There must be some way officers determine them to be good."

During the shooting incident that occurred in a Minneapolis shopping mall about a year ago, this exact scenario occurred.

The plainsclothes cop identified himself with his badge.

Since you don't have a badge, and since you don't have much information to go on, it would be extremely unwise to get involved in someone else's gunfight.

The single exception is, as Pax as outlined, if a police officer is about to be executed in front of you by BGs. Then its a judgement call. Otherwise, you may very well do more harm than good.

IMHO. YMMV.

 

[pelo801]

i would have to agree with glendee above, could you stand by and watch a man in that situation without lending aid. especially if you had the power to help. it would be a judgment call. and there are way too many variables to say for sure. but i think, for myself, i would feel obligated to help. but who doesn't have a phone these days. first i would call 911, and describe myself in detail, so the backup cops would at least be aware of me. but then again, that would take time, which may not be on the officer's side.

 

[swk314]

Wear one..it does not make you a cop but gives you identity.

Wearing a CCW badge is a bad idea for alot of reasons. Most of which have been brought up numerous times in other threads.

This is a tough question to answer. If the officer was alone and needed help I would approach and ask the officer before jumping in the fray in an unarmed confrontation. If it were an armed confrontation or full blown shootout, you're liable to get shot by either side. I think it depends on the situation, but my first priority would be to get my family out of danger.