Police Seek Driver In Apparent Road-Rage Shooting

[markj]

http://www.ketv.com/news/12513467/detail.html?rss=oma&psp=news

Just before 9:30 a.m., investigators said, a Cadillac heading north on 72nd Street cut off a pickup truck near Grant Street. The driver of the truck, in an apparent act of road rage, then cut off the Cadillac and forced it to stop at the intersection of 72nd and Grant streets, police said.

The pickup driver then got out and walked toward the other car. The driver of the Cadillac shot out of the car and hit the pickup driver in the hand, police said. The Cadillac driver drove off, police said.

Sound familiar?

 

[Samurai]

Wasn't that in a movie, once?

What's the connection with "tactics and training"?

 

[Trip20]

Doug, have you been on the road in Omaha, and do you have a Cadillac?

 

[newerguy]

It's really Denny Hansen's fault for closing down that thread.

 

[WIN71]

can't be Doug.

There was no time to ask "What IF"

 

[Hook686]

...Police said that even if the driver shot Johnson in self-defense, it doesn't justify the act.

"Shooting a gun in the city is illegal," said Sgt. Teresa Negron....

That'l fix 'em.

 

[markj]

What's the connection with "tactics and training"?

Not to just shoot someone cause you are afraid of him. It may get you in more trouble than a butt whupping. CCW or not. Now I wonder if it is ilegal to shoot someone that broke into your house and was armed in Omaha? That is the bigger question as the officer stated it is against the law to discharge a firearm in the city. They just passed CCW in Nebr. Teething pains now?

 

[Doug.38PR]

The driver of the truck, in an apparent act of road rage, then cut off the Cadillac and forced it to stop at the intersection of 72nd and Grant streets, police said.

Hey, wait a minute! "forced it to stop"???? I thought some of you people in here at TFL said that wasn't possible!

The pickup driver then got out and walked toward the other car. The driver of the Cadillac shot out of the car and hit the pickup driver in the hand, police said. The Cadillac driver drove off, police said.

Sound familiar?

Okay so they did finally drive on (after shooting the guy). We don't know enough to say for sure, but the question I'm sure someone will ask is, why didn't they drive off before the guy approached the car? As said, we don't know for sure until this person comes forward or the police find them. (nope it wasn't me, I be in Texas and never even seen Omaha and Cadillacs are for old people and pimps ) Could be 1) this person wanted to shoot the guy as this individual could have been in a rage as well or was just plain crazy to begin with, OR 2) it could be that the car was stuck in a ditch or stuck in some other way and the driver was trying to get the car free. Shooting at the guy might have been the only way to keep him at bay while working to get the car free.
Why didn't they get out and confront this guy?
Maybe the individual should have mouthed "I'm sorry" or waved the cell phone at the guy. I don't know.
Possible Answers: 1) maybe they were wanting to shoot the guy out of rage, or 2) maybe it was a woman....or even an old lady (I did say Cadillacs are for old folks )

I do think Denny did shut that thread down prematurely, the question was never fully answered, so I will ask it again on this thread:
How could this situation have been avoided WITHOUT having to use the gun?

Say the driver had been an average man and had gotten out and confronted the pickup driver, said "I'm sorry", whipped out the cell phone and called the police and a tow. The pickup driver doesn't accept that, says "Smudge you!" and starts swinging and trying to tackle the other driver. WITHOUT pulling their gun, what should the gun owner focus on in order to take care of himself and also keep the gun from being taken?

My 2 cents: Nobody really knows for sure. Handle it as it comes. My thoughts are 1) don't get out of the car if you don't have to. 2) If you do have to to get between a man in rage and your wife or family, keep the gun angled away from him as you lean into him or draw away from him (like if the gun is at 4'o'clock, keep your 9-10 o'clock position angled at him). If gun is revealed, try to keep one hand on the gun in the holster so his hand can't while using the other hand to keep him off.

As everybody says, the fight will go as it wants to not how me or anybody else wants it to go.

Maybe a policeman (who carries a gun openly all the time) should chime in and give some tips on the tactics of such a situation

 

[markj]

How could this situation have been avoided WITHOUT having to use the gun?

By being aware of what is going on and dont cut people off or drive in an offensive manner. I ride a motorcycle most days and I get cut off daily, almost run over at times. I let it go tho, why ruin a good day with an angry moment?

I try to be as non confrontational as possible, smile at folks a lot, it makes them understand it was a moment of idiocy and go on. I see that event listed as 2 wrongs, caddy cuts off the truck, truck runs caddy off the road, escalates to the caddy driver shoot man in hand, dont know if driver is man or woman but is small in stature, so the fear angle is understood by me.

I dont worry much about other folks, I am a bit on the huge side and have had training in some venues, was a bouncer for years in my younger days. Not afraid of a confrontation but would rather not and would rather make a new friend.

 

[Doug.38PR]

That's a no brainer....for most people anyway. I try to get a long with people too.
Sometimes accidents happen. You try to be understanding, let it go, but some people in this world aren't like you and me. They are angry people and are looking for trouble. They want to fight.
And sometimes we make mistakes too. Sometimes we do do things to esscalate situations, we are only human.

Let's don't dance around the question by listing all the ways that COULD HAVE avoided the situation in the first place. SOMETIMES, physical confrontation is unavoidable in life.

 

[FirstFreedom]

Police said that even if the driver shot Johnson in self-defense, it doesn't justify the act.

That's funny, since the law *specifically* says that self-defense IS a justification for use of deadly force. So that cop doesn't know one of the most basic tenets of the law, and ought to be fired.

 

[junkpile]

That's funny, since the law *specifically* says that self-defense IS a justification for use of deadly force. So that cop doesn't know one of the most basic tenets of the law, and ought to be fired.

I don't know the law in Omaha, but in Illinois, they just passed a law in which it became a positive defense to illegally owning a firearm if you use it in self defense. Before that, they would prosecute. I think a similar thing may happen in Nebraska. Something like Discharging a firearm is illegal, period. They may not include any provisions for self-defense as a positive legal defense against an otherwise illegal discharge. That said, depends on state, but it's possible that it can happen.

 

[markj]

SOMETIMES, physical confrontation is unavoidable in life.

Never, you can always run away, I am a black belt in run fu, the oriental art of escape all they get to see is ******* and elbows let the young guys fight it out, my hands cant handle it anymore since I broke the right hand on a guys head.

But if it had to come down to a fisticuff, I would lock the pistol in the trunk and get it done. Best to get away tho as you just dont know what the other guy has or is capable of. I got whipped once by a 95 lb chinaman, he tossed me all over the place in my Judo class. Embarrassing to say the least, I wrestled heavyweight.

 

[Denny Hansen]

Sigh…

OK, here is the one positive way to prevent road rage:

Doug should have been paying more attention and maybe driving a bit slower so he did not cut the person off. Staring at the other driver only made a bad situation worse. (The whole male ego “watcha lookin’ at?” thing)

The driver of the Caddy should have had his head on his shoulders and not up his rear end and not cut off the pickup. Drive defensively and give the other guy the right of way even if he is not entitled to it. You’ll be maybe 20 seconds, tops, later to your destination, which is a lot less than if you end up shooting someone and spending years in court (and maybe prison).

I won’t close this one, so please proceed to waste bandwidth with as many “But what ifs?” as you desire.

Denny

 

[newerguy]

Road rage or not, these questions are all about the same thing, when can a I used deadly physical force. The answer is always the same: when you have a reasonable fear that your life is in danger and there is no other way to prevent that deadly physical force from being used against you.

When can you shoot someone who isn't armed following a road rage incident. When 1) you have not caused the threat to yourself (for example, if you tell them your comming to kill them, and they pull a gun in turn, you aren't justified in shooting them), 2) they are presenting a realistic threat of deadly physical force, notwithstanding the fact that they are unarmed, 3) you cannot safely retreat, notwithstanding the fact that you are in a car and they are on foot, and 4) a reasonable person would not see a reasonable alternative to your using deadly physical force, you are probably justified in using deadly physical force. You may have to prove those four sets of facts in court (civil or criminal), and some states don't have a duty to retreat. I would also offer that, in my opinion, if you meet those four requirements, you are probably morally justified in using deadly physical force.

Knowing when those requirements are met requires some degree of training, and a lot of common sense and real life experience. You can make up a lot of ground with good training.

It's always better to have a non-lethal option. Not having to use any force is ALWAYS better than having to use any force, because if you are in a position where you need to defend yourself, you might lose, or you might win and still get hurt. That's exlcuding legal concerns, or the moral concerns of hurting another person.

It doesn't really matter what sets off the situtation (unless it changes whether you are legally or morally justified in using force). In my mind, it always about whether you can avoid the situation, whether you can get out of the situation, whether you need to use force, and how much force you need.

 

[Denny Hansen]

The answer is always the same: when you have a reasonable fear that your life is in danger and there is no other way to prevent that deadly physical force from being used against you.

Hit the nail on the head without a single "what-if". Great post, newerguy!

Denny

 

[AR15FAN]

Just can't use a gun for a road rage situation, no matter how you create a scenario of impending doom. If the guy pulls a gun on you is about the only way you can defend such action in court.

 

[badbob]

Witness: Man Shot On Road May Have Prompted Attack

Cadillac Sought In Connection With Shooting

POSTED: 11:39 am CDT April 19, 2007
UPDATED: 5:18 pm CDT April 19, 2007

OMAHA, Neb. -- Omaha police said they are searcing for someone who shot a man in the hand after an apparent road-rage incident Thursday morning, but witnesses said the victim may have brought on the attack himself.
Just before 9:30 a.m., investigators said, a Cadillac heading north on 72nd Street cut off a pickup truck near Grant Street. The driver of the truck, in an apparent act of road rage, then cut off the Cadillac and forced it to stop at the intersection of 72nd and Grant streets, police said.
The pickup driver then got out and walked toward the other car, according to police. The driver of the Cadillac shot out of the car and hit the pickup driver in the hand, police said. The Cadillac driver drove off, police said.

The shooting victim, who police identified as Joseph Johnson, 25, drove himself to a hospital, and police said he is expected to be OK.
Witnesses said Johnson may have provoked that attack with his behavior and foul language.
Witnesses said Johnson got out and walked to the other car with his fists clenched.
"I mean, his chest was puffed up, and -- 'What? What? What? Do you want some?'" a witness said, paraphrasing the exchange he saw. "Just totally aggressive."
Police are still looking for the shooter, who is described as a small-statured black person. Investigators aren't sure whether it was a man or woman. The white Cadillac was described as a newer model -- possibly an El Dorado.

I'd say the shooter may have been a little premature. Lock the doors, raise the windows and call 911 leaving phone open so cops could hear what's going on. When the guy breaks the window, then shoot him.
Got to admit though, the person in the Caddy broke the bully "from suckin' eggs".

badbob










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[cuate]

We are Victims

Psycologists say that if we put too many white mice in a shoe box they go
to fighting and raising cain with each other. Our Freeways are the shoebox and we are the mice. Its either hotter'n hades or colder'n blue blazes, hard miserable day at work and we want to go home, out of the rat race and away from all the hateful people.

They also say that our autos become an extension of our personalities at times. "What the hell is that Elmer Fudd doing driving 20 in the fast lane"?
"That ignorant Heifer cut me off, I'll be two microseconds late" ! "The nerve of that idiot coming off the entrance ramp and causing me to have to brake"!

But fact is everybody's time is as valuable to them as mine is, what's wrong with backing off a moment and letting somebody in? Being curteous when driving takes a little effort but will give you a nice feeling and be appreciated by a (tiny) few. Try it...........

 

[DWARREN123]

Just don't be a nasty person, give the other person the benefit of the doubt.
Remember some of the dumb things we all do.