Police say shooting justified - Dallas

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
MY GIST of the article:

Mr. Agapito Rodriguez using a pellet gun (which appears to be a real gun) tries to
rob an inebriated Mr. Manuel Dominguez. Undercover Dallas police officer
Genaro Hernandez witnesses the attempted robbery and calls for uniformed
backup.

Mrs. Rodriguez positions the car for a quick getaway. She parks their Explorer
right next to Officer Hernandez’s parked car. Mr. Rodriguez gets into the
Explorer, initiates contact with the officer by asking something to the effect, “Are
you following me?” then Rodriguez suddenly points the (pellet) gun at the Officer
and demands money. Rodriguez gets out of the car (gun in hand). The Officer,
seeing the gun, perceiving it to be a semi-auto firearm (as Mr. Rodriguez obviously
intended) has no time to identify himself and shoots Mr. Rodriguez who, goes
down, but again waves the (pellet) gun at the Officer who shoots Mr. Rodriguez
some more - ending the situation and killing Mr. Rodriguez.

Mrs. Rodriguez says:
1) her husband was unarmed (not true).
-- Her husband obviously was using the pellet gun as a weapon and wanted it
perceived as such.
2) her husband and Dominguez knew each other (not true)
-- Dominguez said he didn’t know Rodriguez;
-- Even Mrs. Rodriguez said, at first, the two men did not know each other.
3) the officer was unprovoked (not true)
-- He was looking down the barrel of Rodriguez’s gun.
4) Rodriguez would never rob anybody (not true)
-- He just tried a moment earlier to rob Dominguez, according to Dominguez.
-- He tried to rob the police officer, according to the officer.
5) her husband would never put his family in harm’s way (not true)
-- Robbing should not be a “family affair”.
6) a police car arrived before the second volley of shots (not true)
-- Police investigators say the opposite.
7) Her husband had been convicted of crimes, but non recently (probably true)
-- And he won’t be convicted again).

A preliminary investigation showed that Officer Genaro Hernandez did not violate
the department's deadly force policy when he fired 11 shots at Agapito Rodriguez.

My take: Mr. Rodriguez robbed drunks, Mrs. Rodriguez drove (or maneuvered)
the getaway car. Note the couple's 1- and 4-year-old daughters were in the vehicle
when Mr. Rodriguez was shot.

There is a moral here: “If you’re using a toy gun to rob people, don’t get into a
gunfight.”

The press commented: “Officer Hernandez, on the force for seven years, has 37
commendations on his personnel record. He received a written reprimand for
failure to follow established procedures, a decision later overruled by the city
manager in 1995.”
Note they printed his time in service first (typical), his 37 commendations second,
and when they noted the reprimand they immediately indicated it had been
overruled. That eliminates surprises later and defangs any later accusations. I
think the press did a good job - as did the cop.

(for the whole story, see
http://www.dallasmorningnews.com/metro/0608met10copshoot.htm


Police say shooting justified;
Widow disputes account, says husband unarmed
06/08/99; By Dave Michaels / The Dallas Morning News
 

Ed Brunner

New member
I guess this is my burden...to always wonder why it took 11 rounds. I know-dead is dead and I have no problem with overkill except that lately it seems that it has become mandatory to empty the thing.
It used to be that when an "expend all available ammo" shooting occurred it was almost always a female shooting an errant male and was perceived as a gender thing.
How refreshing it would be to read that Officer Leo dropped the assialant with one or two rounds,maybe even three.
What if Mrs Rodriguez had a weapon?

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 

fubsy

New member
Ed,
good point but not to worry he probably had an extra hi-capacity mag somewhere which he could have then used if time allowed.......but you have a very valid point, I wonder if its just the caliber, the rush of the situation,, or just what it could be......fubsy.
 

Rob Pincus

New member
I guess that it is my burden to point out that 11 rounds does not a hi-capacity gun make (10+1)...or maybe he didn't fire all his rounds.

Personally, if any TFL member is attacked by a gunman, I hope they keep shooting until they are 100% sure that the guy is down and no longer a threat.
I really hope they don't pull the trigger once or twice and think "Gee, I wonder what people will say if I shoot more than twice??"

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-Essayons
 

GLV

Moderator
Recently I watched a well known writer fire 5 shots from a Glock in 1.19 seconds. Tried a different Glock, 1.23 seconds. 7 yards, all in the 10 on a B-27.

It sounds as if the goblin had a real bad day. He ran into an experienced officer. I train, and have been trained to continue shooting until all hostile actions cease. Seeing as my reaction time is 1/4 to 1/3 of a second, and I would have to recognize that hostile actions have ceased, I might fire 3, perhaps 4 shots after hostile actions stopped. If several shots are fired into the chest of the goblin, how long does it take for him to fall down?

DO NOT STOP AND LOOK UNLESS GOBLIN IS DOWN!

Something wrong here -- agreed with Rob twice in a week. GLV
 

Mal H

Staff
I recall one episode of "America's Most Wanted" where Sandy (for the life of me I can't remember his full name), the resident self defense spokesman and a retired LEO had a segment on using a gun for self defense. He said that if you choose to have a gun in your home, first learn how to use it, and if the occasion arises, do use it. His advice was to not shoot the BG only once and then quit, keep firing since one shot is seldom enough to prevent him from continuing the attack. I think that good advice applies here as well.
 

Destructo6

New member
Isn't there a gun fighting saying that goes something like, "Shoot twice, reload once,"?

I can understand how one's trigger finger could get mighty twitchy when you believe (resonably in this case) that you're about to get plugged.
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Okay, Rob, move over....
-------
Good Lord, guys! I was trying to post a shooting where there could be NO question about the cop being in the right!! I really thought this could be a peace-maker. Arrggh.

Bear in mind Mr. Rodriguez was not your pretty black and white, blue and white or whatever, paper target. Rodriguez repeatedly aimed a gun at the cop and the cop hurriedly fired.

It was dark out. Rodriguez initiated the hostile action (both verbally and physically) and appeared to present an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death.

"Cop done good!"

Wasn't the cop's fault if he was stuck with a puny 9mm rather than a real man's gun - a .45!! ((tee hee. Oh, yeah, that'll quiet things down!
biggrin.gif
))

Instigator Grump

BTW, I would bet the cop was VERY aware of Mrs. Rodriguez and was just a bit curious whether she allso was going to shoot him.
 

John/az2

New member
I would do the same thing; shoot until the threat is neutralized. At this point in my training it would probably be more due to the adrenaline, than rational thought.

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com
 

fubsy

New member
I know 11 rounds isnt hi-capacity, but depending on what he's shooting he has plenty of rounds to shoot multiple times....I did not make that comment to enflame just that observation....If I remember correctly when leo's only used 6 shot revolvers of a less than adequate cartridge, the not-so special 38 special, they were more concerned with bullet placement than hosing the bg down--that was how I took the thread and it is a curiosity, no? with out getting into ballistics,,,the nine is superior to the 38spl, agreed?
I totally agree if the bg is continuing hostility keep shooting.......,,,,lets use a what if scenario.....what if he shoots this guy 11 times and his wife jumps in and he dosent have 11 more rounds for her with out reloading, dont ya thing the 4, 5, or 6 rounds he has left will work on her......
 

Cheapo

New member
I agree. BG started the wrong party with the wrong tool in hand. Paid for it appropriately. Cop did good. No problem there.

I also wonder about the round count. I've heard that the U.S. Military found that troops take the same amount of time to empty their rifles, even as mag capacity increased.

So..... Does anyone know how often the cops emptied their guns in the old revolver days? Or does our training now encourage righteous shooters to use up all their ammo, just because we *can*?

I've personally read the police reports and autopsy of one shooting where the off-duty cop fired exactly two rounds of .40 S&W and dropped the perpetrator. I was curious as to why he (50 yrs) approached to within 15 feet of an unarmed, shirtless (alleged), lean-and-mean (?) rapist in his early 20s. BG charged and cop fired twice.

Whether the guy's unarmed or not, *I'm* NOT going to approach within 15 yards of a perp I'm subduing.

The only excuse for getting that close is either they were already closer, or the situation demands that you cuff 'em before backup arrives.
 

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
I have always asserted that the crux of the rounds fired question from a legal standpoint was: "Was the first round fired justified?" If the answer to that question is yes then all the rounds fired were legally justified. There is no such thing as a "little" bit of lethal force. Whether it is a private citizen or a LEO is moot.
 

Ed Brunner

New member
Spartacus;You are correct.I still find it curious that the avg no of rounds fired keeps goining up.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Well, I'm sure we're all glad the officer came out OK. And, this is another incident that reminds me that I want the largest magazine possible / practical in my firearm.

Whether or not LEO's need to expend as many rounds as they do, as a civilian who has never yet been attacked with deadly force, I don't have great confidence that I will 'budget' my rounds more carefully ... or place them more accurately than my local LEO. Sarah et al, I appreciate your concern ... but I'll take the larger, full capacity magazine, thank you.
 

Jffal

New member
A family friend who has handled firearms at least since the Korean War predicted during the eighties that with the growing popularity of large capacity semiautos in law enforcement, more bullets would be discharged as a consequence.

Too bad the wife of the culprit didn't collect a few hits. Her Explorer could have been considered to be a "deadly weapon".

There was a case several years ago in NYC where pellet or airgun armed street punks held up a citizen who immediatly blasted them both to hell with a .44 Mag. The citizen got in trouble for packing heat in a city where only the police, politicians and thugs could go out armed but I do not recall murder charges being imposed on him.
Jeff
 
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