Pocket Carry - 21 feet "test"

[dean1818]

I have had very good luck with reliability with a CM9 and a M&P 45C for my personal CCW.

The CM9 is for those days where I need to tuck in my shirt and for when I am
going for a quick run to the store

The CM9 fits the pocket carry role for me, but I am beginning to think differently

Recently I had the opportunity to shoot a LCR and using the pocket holster
found that I could pull the LCR from my pocket MUCH quicker than the CM9

This has started to bother me a bit, as there MAY be a situation where a fast draw may be needed.

I had a client that practiced using the "21 foot" test.

The 21 foot test is having someone start from a stop and run directly toward you and have you cleanly draw and protect yourself (obviously with an unloaded weapon)

21 feet may seem like a long way away, but it goes quickly

I do ok with an IWB setup but not so good with a pocket carry, and not so well with a semi auto, even a small one.

I can definitly draw from the pocket, but it isnt fast.

Looking back to the LCR, it actually has a taller height than the CM9 , and its longer as well.... It draws easier because of the more rounded top, and because when compared with the CM9 nose down, the height of the LCR is almost 1/2 inch less.

You can also see from this comparision that the backend of the semi is at an extreme angle that would lend itself to catch in the pocket.

The CM9 may be heading to IWB carry, and a LCR may be in the pocket soon

 

[willmc33]

I carry a Smith & Wesson 638 .38 now and have carried a Smith & Wesson 642 for years. In my experience except for the super small micro pistols a snubbie will always be able to be presented faster then a pocket auto. Grip angle in my opinion but I can present my 638 and 642 faster then any other pistol I have and much faster then IWB. I have always been of the opinion that snubbies are the best for pocket carry and that is actually one of the biggest reasons. Fastest presentation and very accurate for me at 7 yards and easy to fire rapidly.

 

[Strafer Gott]

I find that a bodyguard 38+P with a pocket holster is a nice combination of comfort, presentation and shoot-ability. I prefer five right now, and the front sight is perfectly adequate. Some one once said "Slow Sucks". I tend to agree,when it comes to self defense.

Thanks for the eyes

 

[aarondhgraham]

That's the Tueller Drill distance,,,

Click here please,,,

Law enforcement has used this as a standard to determine when an officer can shoot an assailant who is armed with a knife.

In 1993 a young park ranger in Sacramento, California was facing prosecution by a young ADA out to make a name for herself,,,
Ranger Kathleen Hickey had shot and killed a transient who was brandishing a butcher knife and advancing on her,,,
The ADA claimed the lethal difference between a pistol and knife was too great,,,
She claimed the shot should not have been taken at all,,,
The transient was shot at approximately 12-14 feet.

The Defense team arranged for her to go through the Tueller drill with academy trainers,,,
From 21 feet her "assailant" was able to "rush and cut" her every attempt.

Ranger Hickey was acquitted of all charges and reinstated to duty.

Aarond

.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Law enforcement has used this as a standard to determine when an officer can shoot an assailant who is armed with a knife.

Most of your post is informative, but this sentence is not. It is incorrect. There is no 21-foot "standard" or "rule." It WAS a rule of thumb, developed by now-retired Captain Dennis Tueller of the Salt Lake City police Department. The purpose was solely to demonstrate to new patrol officers that a bad guy at what might appear to be a safe distance away could still be a threat. It has never been used as a hard-and-fast standard, and even several years ago Captain Tueller himself stated that 21-feet is not far enough today. But Tueller did not offer it as a rule-of-thumb for when an officer could or could not shoot. He presented it as a guideline for when an officer needed to do something to be prepared for IF a subject decided to attack. What to do could be anything from stepping back a few feet to placing the strong hand on the duty weapon to enhance reaction time to drawing the weapon and holding it at the low ready position. It did not automatically create a 21-foot free fire zone around the officer.

The reason is that the original drill was based on how fast an average officer in his department could draw and fire from what they were then using as duty holsters. Those were early types of retention holsters. Today's retention holsters are more complicated and it takes longer to draw, which means a potential assailant has more time in which to act, which translates to being able to cover more distance.

Each incident, even an officer-involved shooting, has to be evaluated based on the circumstances of the particular incident. There may be situations when shooting at a distance significantly more than 21 feet would be deemed appropriate, and there may be situations in which shooting at a distance of 21 feet might NOT be appropriate.

THERE IS NO "21-FOOT RULE."

By the way, the Wikipedia article has the details incorrect. Backwards, in fact. The article implies that the 21-foot distance was chosen first and then timed. In fact, the development of the drill started with timing how fast several veteran officers could draw and fire. That's where the 1.5 seconds came from. Then they conducted experiments to see how much ground an assailant could cover in the 1.5 seconds, and that's where the 21 feet came from.

And since it now takes an officer more than 1.5 seconds to draw and fire from a current-issue retention holster, you can see why the 21 feet is no longer a valid dystance. And the 21 feet never applied to anyone other than a salt Lake City police officer anyway.

 

[dean1818]

Whether it is a guideline or a rule, i belive that most people that pocket carry may not be able to draw quickly enough from a pocket.

My M&P45C actually fits in some of my cargo pants

Because it fits doesnt mean that it draws


Everone who pocket carries may want to try this drill, just so you know

 

[jimbob86]

I had difficulty with the Tueller Drill with an IWB holser..... I don't think I could even get one shot off in under 2 seconds, having to dig the gun out of a front pants pocket .....

 

[willmc33]

My 638 in a pocket holster fills my pocket nicely. It keeps in a perfect position. There is no reaching and digging around for it. It is simply reach in and grip it and pull. It is very smoth and consistent. To me it is much quicker then raising a shirt, hopefully clearing my pistol in the first pull, gripping the pistol, clearing the holster and rotating onto target.

 

[camsdaddy]

My pocket progression went as follows. P32, M38,PF9,642,CM9,PF9 and am back to my 642. I find I can draw it and shoot it btter than I could my semi's. I carried my P32 for years and dont get me wrong. I wouldnt hesitate to carry a P32/P3AT/LCP if I wanted a semi due to size I draw them better than I can the 9mm. I agree they are a pocket full.

 

[willmc33]

This is a good resource

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/m642.htm

 

[jeepman4804]

The 21 foot rule is not something I would worry too much about. If someone wants to attack you they are going to usually get as close as possible before springing the trap, normal conversation distance. When I am on a call I am very rarely more than 5 feet away from a suspect or victim. Only if it is a suicidal in the open, active shooter, or similar would we really have an opportunity to possibly get some distance. By that time our firearms are already out... I would focus more on identifying a threat, pushing off to create distance, drawing on the move, and shooting on the move.

 

[Mrgunsngear]

When I went through the police academy many moons ago we used the 21 foot test. It's an excellent training tool for people as almost everyone is surprised how fast someone can close the 21 foot distance. It teaches people the need to be in condition orange/yellow (terminology differers with different trainers...) and to be aware of everyone around you, not just in your immediate sphere.

I did this test to my wife and she failed miserably drawing her G17 from her Galco purse the first 10 or 12 times. She was shocked but I wasn't. After a few days of practice, practice, practice, she's got it down.


21 feet isn't some hard and fast rule but it is another tool in the defensive training took bag.

 

[drail]

This is why I never understood the popularity of pocket carry. If it takes more than 1.5 seconds to draw your gun then you need to find a more accessible form of carry. And if you are forced to straighten out your body to get your hand IN your pocket then you are handicapping yourself. But I come from the old school of heavy belts and leather holsters and shooting against the clock every weekend. It will really open up your eyes to what all can go wrong.

 

[contender4040]

i as well have found revolvers like the 642 much faster and easier to draw from the pocket. Especially with the old fashioned small bananna grip with a tyler T. The snag-free slope profile helps as well.

 

[willmc33]

I dont put much stock into the 21 feet rule and dont think the 1.5 second draw time applies to citizens who are legally carrying concealed. There are inherent problems drawing quickly with a gun that by rule has to be concealed. That 1.5 second time was quantified by veteran officers with pistols holstered on their hips in the open in a training drill. That cannot be duplicated in a CCW situation unless you are holstered on your hip and just have a shirt covering your pistol and still would probably come in over 1.5 seconds. I can get my pistol out of my pocket very quickly but I seriously doubt its as fast as someone with their gun in the open on a duty belt.

 

[junkman6970]

Pocket Carry

I carry a 2in., 357, in a mika's holster and can draw faster. I wear tee shirts all the time and have no problem. thanks

 

[kraigwy]

This is why I never understood the popularity of pocket carry. If it takes more than 1.5 seconds to draw your gun then you need to find a more accessible form of carry.

I disagree, all it takes is practice. I normally have my hands in my pocket anyway and it takes me well under 1 second to draw and fire.

As to the reverse, if I was to charge someone from 21 feet, they have time to reload their shells before I get to them.

 

[BlueTrain]

I think maybe there are two things about pocket carry that people may be overlooking. One, it is for a second gun. Two, originally it may have implied coat pocket carry. In fact, one used to see references to actually shooting from inside your coat pocket but that may have come from watching too many gangster movies.

Still, there are other forms of pocket carry, too. One old design that has apparently disappeared was intended to be carried in a hip pocket and was made for both revolvers and small autos. It was made to fit snugly inside the pocket and some I recall had a kind of wire to help hold it in place. Others seemed to have been a combination belt holster but with the holster worn inside the pocket. None of these would work if you did much sitting. Or maybe they would (doing a little experimenting here just now). Things like this are hard to decide about in five minutes or less.

 

[PawPaw]

The Tueller Drill is a good training tool, but it doesn't apply to a real-life situation, it's simply training and should be appreciated as such. I'm not underestimating the importance of knowing the theory, and practicing high-speed presentation, but it's also important to not overestimate the importance.

An assailant who has decided to launch an attack is already inside your OODA loop and by the time you react will have closed the distance considerably.

 

[johnbt]

"I think maybe there are two things about pocket carry that people may be overlooking. One, it is for a second gun."

When was this rule written or did you make it up? I've been pocket carrying for way more than 10 years. My great uncle Ed pocket carried an 1884 S&W break top .38 and it surely wasn't a second gun. My grandfather had a 3" IJ .32 he carried in his pocket. I could go on talking about my relatives, but I'll admit that my father's Detective Special was pocket carried as a second gun when he was a state trooper after WWII. In later years he pocket carried a Model 649 .357 as his primary.

So I think you made up that rule.

When I do this 21-foot test, do I have to start the draw with my hands above my shoulders or on my head or something or do I get to stand around with my hands in my pockets like lots of people?