Pneumatically reclaimed primers

2wheelwander

New member
At the LGS and a vendor had pneumatically reclaimed small rifle primers he claimed came from reclaimed military ammo. $130/1000, which was the same price for new primers all around the show.

I have zero experience with these and was wary, not to mention his insanity of wanting the same money new primers were asking. They had some tarnish on them. Handling them there were a few grains of powder that fell out, but otherwise looked usable. Not knowing if they'd perform I didn't even make him an offer.

Anybody have experience with these or question their serviceability? I'm not paying those prices for new primers, but if they are fine, I'd have offered him half. What say you?
 
The primers have to be pushed on hard enough to overcome the crimp in the military ammo, so they've been subjected to some force from pretty high air pressure, I expect. However, that force will distribute and push on the primer foil directly and not on the anvil, so it shouldn't do that kind of damage. The one difference from a regular primer is these will have their bridge already set. That is, when a primer is seated, the military specs call for it to be "reconsolidated" by pushing the cup in about 0.003" beyond the point where the anvil feet contact the bottom of the primer pocket. This compresses the priming compound, setting the thickness of the amount of it that bridges the gap between the anvil tip and the bottom of the primer cup. With that already set, my expectation would be that you need to avoid further consolidation by seating them only to the point the anvil feet make contact with the floor of the primer pocket and no further. So they would need to be seated with a delicate touch.
 

44 AMP

Staff
I would not touch them with the proverbial ten foot pole.

If the asking price for reclaimed/salvaged/pulled down anything is the same as the asking price for new, somebody is ripping somebody off.

At a lower than new price, salvage bullets, ok, brass, ok, these can be easily visually inspected, suitability and serviceability can be determined.

Salvage powder, not so much...and salvaged primers, not at all.

Origin unknown (vendor's claims are worthless, all he knows is the story he got when he bought them from somebody else)

where is that vendor going to be when month or three later, after a couple hundred that worked, you find a couple hundred of them that don't????
Is he going to be there to stand behind what he sold? If he is there, is he going to stand behind what he sold? Can you go to the people that made them and complain?? Get any kind of recompense for a bad product or batch?

I'd guess the answer to those questions is "no".

MAYBE they're fine...though I wonder about them being squeezed out past a military crimp with air pressure....

Handling them there were a few grains of powder that fell out, ...

that right there is a big red flag to me. Handling them?? how? loose primers in your hands? boxes of of them? With a "few grains" of powder that fell out? Gunpowder??? something else??? Could you tell?

Sorry, too many unknowns for me, even at half the going market rate, I'd still pass.

Primers are something you cannot test without using them up. TRUST is the only real thing you have to go on.

Unknown and unverifiable source, gunshow vendor, price same as new?
Trust = zero (for me, anyway, and I don't have money to gamble on that)
 

gwpercle

New member
I have never heard or seen "reclaimed " primers offered for sale and unless they were dirt cheap ... I wouldn't touch them with that 10 foot pole .
Getting primers loaded and then removed isn't easy on the primer compound ... if the compound is cracked, it damages it's ability to reliably ignite .
Gary
 

hammered54

New member
bought 2k a while back....under a hundie (75)per 1k.....work just fine so far , been through about 900 and all have gone bang....just screen them to remove what "might" be any left over powder....only problem and not really a problem is that there was some left over sealer on them and dont like to flow smoothly through my Lee primer feeder on the turret.....use the hornady hand primer...all is good.
would buy again when and if aval.
 

rc

New member
Better than matchstick primers but I'll wait for regular primers unless as stated they were $20/1000 and otherers were $130 for the same amount. I would be a bit concerned that the primers were damaged or deformed coming out of that military crimp and a primer is the most important component for reliable reloads.
 

101combatvet

New member
The first question should be, why were they salvaged? :eek:

Umm, I think I know why, which means you'll be getting some misfires in that lot. Save your money. Unless it's in the original packaging, you have no idea what you are getting.
 

RC20

New member
Pneumatically?

Seems more likely hydraulically let alone the force involved with the crimping/ ergh.
 

44 AMP

Staff
There are a lot of reasons why ammo can be "downchecked" and scrapped or sold as surplus. But, by far the most common one is simply age.

Many militaries today (probably most?) have age limits on ammo. Not because the ammo has deteriorated, but because they have determined that after a certain amount of time, it could.

Think of it as a "best used by" date on any chemical product you see. (not food:rolleyes:) In the US, every product with a chemical component has some "expiration date" given by the manufacturer. It may be an actual date, or it may be a specified time from the date of manufacture, after which, the maker no longer officially stands behind the product.

Unofficially they will usually tell you that if the product looks, smells, and acts good, despite the age, then it probably is still good, but officially, past a certain date, they will no longer guarantee the product is good. Paints, solvents. glues, cleaners, fuel, all kinds of things, including gunpowder and primers.

We all know properly made ammo lasts a long time in proper storage. But even in proper storage, there is a determined shelf life, after which, while the stuff you have probably is still good, it's no longer trusted to be good.

IF, for example the shelf life is 20 years, the military may scrap it at 10 years, just to ensure its quality. Small arms ammo is cheap, and cheaply replaced in the scheme of military expenditures.

Now, why "reclaimed" primers? why not just sell the surplus ammo intact?? Some places have (relatively new) laws / rules about selling surplus ammo. Europe used to be a major source, but in the past couple decades they have stopped, due to political pressure to reduce "international arms trafficking".
Some places won't allow surplus ammo to be sold but will allow recovered components to be sold.

Bullets rarely degrade. Cases, powder, and primers are another matter. And the big problem with that is when it is "reclaimed" and sold to a vendor, its known where it came from. After that generally its not. And the end user purchaser (you or I) almost never gets the actual history.

You never know what you're getting or how well it will work. And there's no known maker you can contact about problems.

As an example, about a decade ago a friend bought 500rns of "surplus" 7.62 NATO ammo. And took delivery sight unseen. Said it was the only time he'd ever just picked up ammo without looking at at least some of it, first.

Stuff came packed loose in a crumbling plastic bag inside a box, and there was a significant amount of sand in it as well. 99-02 headstamps, ammo was dingy but not visibly corroded.

Tested 100 rounds. 11 did not fire at all. 17 of the fired cases cracked. Every one that fired hit the 200m gong just fine and cases seemed ok. Pulldown of the dud rounds showed deteriorated powder (discolored, clumped, stuck to base of bullet, etc.)

We pulled down the rest salvaged the bullets and tossed the brass & powder. Based just on the age, that ammo should have been fine. It wasn't.

Now, today, with the high demand for primers during this shortage, someone might just be taking crap ammo, "Pneumatically reclaiming" the primers and selling them for a LARGE profit.

You and I aren't going to know anything is wrong until we get a click when we expect a bang. For me, its not worth the risk if the ammo I loaded with them needs to be used for something serious, and not worth the aggravation if its used for recreation, and fails to fire.

And, with an unknown and un-knowable history, its absolutely not worth the price of new, verifiable quality primers.
 

RC20

New member
I think the indicators would be more than enough to say, hmm, lets not shoot this stuff.


I am curious on Primer Extraction. I don't buy Pneumatic, hydraulic yes but with a military crimp?

I have seen one where they use water and a plunger (dry the primer out latter).

I did a lot of pipeline building support. They did not use air to test a pipe. They filled it with water and pumped it up with a bit of air.

If you broke a seam there was no blow up, pressure drop was immediate. I hate to think what air and breaking a primer out of a crimp would do even if you could seal the neck. .

I
 

hammered54

New member
well....im shooting.
been through roughly 900 so far....bang bang....NFF so far.
75/1000 might be a little steep....but given the climate as of now.....cheap.
and if any fail to fire....Ill just pull them down.
and when these run out I can go back to fresh stock......

Matt.
 
RV20 said:
I hate to think what air and breaking a primer out of a crimp would do even if you could seal the neck.

I think you could do it, but there's no question the primer would be ballistic emerging from the case. What to catch it in?
 

RC20

New member
My guess is that at best its air over water. More likely a plunger over water and whatever drives the plunger.

Yes you can dry the primers out after and likely no issue.

But back to, breakout out from the crimps, ungh.

What could possibly go wrong?
 

44 AMP

Staff
Pneumatic is air

Hydraulic is water.

IF using water to drive out primers, the system is hydraulic, no matter what you use (including air pressure) to push the water. If they say pneumatic, then no water was involved.

If water was involved and they say pneumatic, they're using the wrong term.

Either way, I have no interest in reclaimed primers, period.
 
I think he meant using a bucket of water to catch the pneumatically ejected primers. Seems like adding drying time would increase the cost of the process, though.
 

RC20

New member
Unclenick: No, I meant a air driven plunger of some kind that at least conceptually you had water in the case and the plunger sealed at the neck enough to get a sudden pulse of pressure to the primer.

I had seen a U tube that did that with hand power (some years back and going from memory, it was a messy process in a Berden Primer ops)

A primer hitting water at velocity would be pretty close to a hard surface. \\

44 Amp:

That would not be correct. What I expect from someone that does not work in the tech world of mechanics.

I have run equipment that was air over hydraulics as well as air to air and electric to air. The distinctions were clear for a reason.

A pipeline test was hydraulic in nature but it was air pressure that pumped it up, they did not use a high pressure hydraulic pump (which I have done testing with as well).

Its critial for air injection to where the injection is located. Engine or electric driven hydraulic pump you can inject anywhere. Noting that you need to know what powers the pump or she no a work a so good.

If you are talking to someone about your process, its critial to clear conversation and understanding of what your process is for them to know what the hell you are talking about.

When you call up the mechanic to fix your man-lift the first thing they need to know is it engine driven hydraulics or electric driven?

So if its air activating a hydraulic function its the correct way to express it.

I can see someone calling it pneumatic as its so iffy that if you mentioned water its no deal.
 
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Oh, I see. You are thinking of compressing the air in the case with the plunger. You are right that there are Berdan primer reloaders who do the hydraulic version of that with motor oil. Part of the reason for the oil is its viscosity will help it seal leaks, though. I was thinking of just a seal that fit the case and a scuba tank to apply the pressure, but you might be right. My approach would probably require putting the case in an action with a bored-through bolt for the primer to escape through and a stub of a barrel for the chamber and the high-pressure hose attachments. Otherwise, the case would take off along with the primer.
 

44 AMP

Staff
If you are talking to someone about your process, its critial to clear conversation and understanding of what your process is for them to know what the hell you are talking about.

I agree with that. No doubt. And we are often a bit sloppy (myself included) when talking general terms in casual conversation.
None of us is immune to the occasional mis-speak, when compared to the full correct technical designations.
This is what I expect from people who do work in the tech world of mechanics, as well as those who don't.

just one example. from right here, right now....

a scuba tank to apply the pressure,

We all know (or should know) what was meant, a pressure vessel (an air tank) but a scuba tank is a specific type of air tank, for underwater use. I used to work in respiratory protection (among other things) and in that field, it makes a difference. The air tank worn by firefighters or those working in hazardous (including IDLH) atmospheres is an SCBA not SCUBA. Go underwater wearing an SCBA and you will drown. The systems are the same, in general, in that they both provide breathing air to the user, but they are made differently for the intended conditions and are not interchangeable.

Other than in casual conversation where the general idea is more important than the technical details.

if you actually do have a scuba tank and the right fittings to use it as a source of compressed air for other than underwater breathing, you certainly can do that, and I apologize for my assumption..
 
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